Ask Lemmy

education, money, AND RETIREMENT FUNDING

mofos

Not directly to your question, but I dislike this NPR article very much.

Mwandjalulu dreamed of becoming a carpenter or electrician as a child. And now he's fulfilling that dream. But that also makes him an exception to the rule. While Gen Z — often described as people born between 1997 and 2012 — is on track to become the most educated generation, fewer young folks are opting for traditionally hands-on jobs in the skilled trade and technical industries.

The entire article contains a buried classist assumption. Carpenters have just as much a reason to study theater, literature, or philosophy as, say, project managers at tech companies (those three examples are from PMs that I've worked with). Being educated and a carpenter are only in tension because of decisions that we've made, because having read Plato has as much in common with being a carpenter as it does with being a PM. Conversely, it would be fucking lit if our society had the most educated plumbers and carpenters in the world.

NPR here is treating school as job training, which is, in my opinion, the root problem. Job training is definitely a part of school, but school and society writ large have a much deeper relationship: An educated public is necessary for a functioning democracy. 1 in 5 Americans is illiterate. If we want a functioning democracy, then we need to invest in everyone's education for its own sake, rather than treat it as a distinguishing feature between lower classes and upper ones, and we need to treat blue collar workers as people who also might wish to be intellectually fulfilled, rather than as a monolithic class of people who have some innate desire to work with their hands and avoid book learning (though those kinds of people need also be welcomed).

Occupations such as auto technician with aging workforces have the U.S. Chamber of Commerce warning of a "massive" shortage of skilled workers in 2023.

This is your regular reminder that the Chamber of Commerce is a private entity that represents capital. Everything that they say should be taken with a grain of salt. There's a massive shortage of skilled workers for the rates that businesses are willing to pay, which has been stagnant for decades as corporate profits have gone up. If you open literally any business and offer candidates enough money, you'll have a line out the door to apply.

Free training and increase the minimum wage while tying it to inflation.

Fund a Top Gun style movie only about carpenters, plumbers, and HVAC guys. ;)

no one should be made to work. they should be incentivized and the opportunities should be easily accessible.

The market is taking care of itself - the article appears to be concerned that the relatively cheap jobs are not being filled at the previous going rate. I work in the trades, and average wage has gone up 40% in 10 years, and everyone is still hurting for new electricians, so this wage growth will increase for the foreseeable future. Classrooms are full of students seeing those wages… the market is taking care of itself.

A large disincentive for the trades is the heat of the south, and the lower barrier to entry of those states is evident in the construction standards and output. Still wages will have to increase there, or work won’t get done.

A lot of these articles pine for people willing to work at the previous low wage for a position, and much good may that do them.

Civil Construction programs.

Basically military-like program for infrastructure. Sign up for 4 years, we'll train you in an in demand trade, put you through the apprenticeship and pay you the whole time. Then send you to build infrastructure and work in construction around the country. Any out of region jobs would include housing.

Cities, counties, states, and federal government would be required that x% of all government construction projects are to be done by this civilian construction program.

Stop with the relentless “Everyone should go to college “ BS

Yes, historically college graduates make more over their lifetime; but if everyone has a college degree, and or every job requires a degree, especially when it really doesn’t need to; you devalue a degree.

I’d push for a CCC for the trades. You’re likely to have to leave home, but we’ll hire you for …2-3 years and train you. No debt, you’ll get paid the whole time, and when you’re done you’ll be good to go

Universal healthcare and supporting trade unionization expansion.

Cut war funding

Increase education funding

Raise taxes on the billionaire class

I’m a 3 trade branch manager and the overwhelming commonality that drives motivation is telling the apprentices how much they can make a year consistently.

I had a guy who wouldn’t touch drains (plumbers mostly are above that for some reason) until he found out that he could make $150K/year as a drain tech (no license needed generally). Proved it with one of his peers and he literally switched his tune immediately.

Average HVAC service techs should be at $100K. Good electricians are at $200K+.

Yeah, they make a lot more than most people. That’s what they should be telling young people. Like working with your hands or you’re a visual learner? Trades is where you should be. You’ll be happy, well paid, and have an amazing sense of accomplishment every day. It’s a great living.

The unions don't let in enough people for one. Thousands apply for a few dozen to a hundred spots per year for locals that cover major metropolitan areas.

The demand for the work is far greater than the desire to do the work.

Union carpenters in my area make about $33 an hour, starting off at around $14-16. Compare that to a union plumber who makes $55 an hour, starting at $20/hr. Carpentry pay is too low and plumbing can be some really shitty work. Both do hard work that is somewhat technical, it ain't rocket surgery, but there is a fair amount of math involved and understanding diagrams.

I would work to address the barrier to entry to unions, but that won't fix the fault of the person who should do the work but won't regardless of the pay and benefits.

• Government grants/scholarships for skilled trades predicted by federal employment office to have a shortfall in either workers or colleges in the near future.
• Federal standardization of all education (if this isn't the case already) to simplify importing workers out of state
• Increased unemployment benefits for trades to ease off-season/low demand periods and make the career more attractive
• grade-school/high-school and general media propaganda to improve public opinion of 'grunt workers'

or do absolutely nothing and let the free market figure it out like we're told it will

Fucking public works projects. Announced early. Work with schools to pipeline kids to trade schools. Work with trade schools to set people up with jobs in public works projects.

Stop letting college and college board run the fucking country. We push kids away from trade school. We shove them in college. We shove them in AP courses. We do not give a fuck what is good for the student. We only care that they do what makes the school look good and/or more money.

Create a federal school grading metric that puts education in skilled trades on the same level as college readiness. I would also set up a metric that adjusts student test score on ratings to include the economic & familial conditions of the students and improvements.

That way, schools are incentivized to put students into the trades the same way as putting students in college.

Good to see Kamala Harris posting on Lemmy

Unions. If my kid who is choosing between college and electrician had a strong electrical workers union to go to to start, it would make a huge difference to that decision.

I would inform public universities that I would pull/reduce funding unless they start trade training programs. There would also be a media campaign to talk about trade jobs, and reduce the "uneducated blue collar worker" stigma around honest skilled work.

I'd also support, or at least not undercut, unions and tax billionaires.

I would have one of my political allies propose a bill that would fund universal secondary education, then when it is inevitably shot down, I would use my newly granted immunity to have anyone thay voted against it very publicly removed then I would have an ally propose a constitutional amendment creating public education and removing presidential immunity. Then I would resign, and my vice president would pardon me, then my vice president would push a bill, preventing the president from being pardoned for crimes commited* while in office.

Not specifically USA answer, just some general thoughts that could probably work anywhere:

• A generous safety net, maybe UBI, so anyone can take as much time off as they need to requalify for a trade
• Very cheap (but not free) training
• Easy path to education and training, there shouldn't be too many hurdles between "i'd like to do that" and "i'm officially an apprentice"
• Enforcement of health&safety regulations - trade jobs often have lower life expectancy for being physically hard
• Ensured healthcare and retirement
• Paid maternity leave for self-employed
• General support for unions, while pushing back on some of the excesses (like limit on the number of members)
• Edit: Simple taxation. Not necessarily low taxes, just make them simple to calculate and pay. Tradespeople don't have an accounting department.

If those jobs came with a guaranteed pension after 20 years of destroying your body, people would be lining up for them. $24/hour is okay for getting by-day-to-day as a single young person but you can't raise kids, build wealth, buy a house, or have a future outside of getting up tomorrow morning.

If I were President, my primary focus would be on restricting the ways we make people do anything economically.

I’m in favor of free markets, aka people doing that they choose, not what I make them do.

Easy.

Build public infrastructure. Lots and lots of public infrastructure.

Healthcare.

"Making" anyone do anything they aren't interested in sounds like a bad idea to me.

$$

Encourage/incentivise an actual apprentice scheme.
I don't know how to validate new apprenticeships, tho.
I know there is some sort of apprenticeship program in the US. Bring that to the forefront. Subsidise it, advertised it, promote it.

Apprentices shouldn't be taxed, subsidise their health/personal/business insurances.
Apprenticeships should include some basic training in business, taxes and finances.

Have tax breaks for companies, and heavily fund self employed/sole-traders who take on an apprentice.

You have to make apprenticeship as attractive as university & industry/corporate, especially in a world where technology is so exciting.
Making apprenticeship pay decently, and not be a significant financial risk to employers (apprenters?) will make it a no-brainer to companies.
Tax breaks or geants for big companies.
And making apprenticeship extremely cheap and low risk for sole traders/self employed (IE, more of this than subsidies for companies) will stop it from being a big-company-only thing. Like subsidised special apprentice insurance, tax breaks, grants.

Promote some sort of "ethical traders" kinda website, where traders with apprentices are advertised/promoted. Have some regulation around it, some customer reviews, make it neutral.
The idea being consumers will go to the "ethical traders" website to find someone to do work because it is a regulated neutral 3rd party that only includes ethical traders with reputable customer reviews. Somewhere that companies will work to maintain reputation.

Higher pay.

I would kill the ones that are hired now.