this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2024
314 points (90.5% liked)

politics

19125 readers
2594 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I don't know what was wrong with Joe Biden. It's hard to imagine that they ever would have asked for a debate if this was the way he is normally. We've seen him recently holding press conferences and giving speeches and he seemed to be fine. They said he had a cold so maybe he really was on drugs — Nyquil or Mucinex or something that made him seem so shaky and frail. Whatever it was, it was a terrible debate for him and if he does stay in the race (which is almost certain in my opinion) the campaign is going to have a lot of work to do to dig out of the hole that was dug last night. The media smells blood and they are circling like a bunch of starved piranhas.

. . . For some odd reason, moderator Jake Tapper told Trump in the beginning that he didn't need to answer the questions and that he could use the time however he wanted. Trump ran with that, essentially giving a rally speech whenever he had the floor and was unresponsive to the vast majority of the questions. He made faces and insulted Biden to his face, at one point calling him a criminal and a Manchurian candidate. If anyone had said 10 years ago that this would happen at a presidential debate they would have been laughed out of the room. 

After the debate when most of the country had turned off cable news or gone to bed, CNN aired its fact check. And it's a doozy:

It sure would have been good if even some of that epic litany of lies could have been checked while people were still watching. The decision to have the moderators sit like a couple of potted plants woodenly asking questions about child care while Trump responded with irrelevant lies was inexplicable. Why did they even bother to ask questions at all? They could have just run the timer and let the candidates talk for two minutes each about anything they wanted. It probably would have been more enlightening.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] themeatbridge 226 points 4 months ago (10 children)

It's amazing to me that "he sounds feeble" is worse than "everything he said wasn't true."

[–] Ghostalmedia 96 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Problem is, the lower information voters don’t know that Trump is lying, and Biden couldn’t point that out in a clear and concise way. He was soft and rambling and wasn’t campaigning competently on that stage.

He needed to make the case against Trump. Which isn’t hard.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 4 months ago

This is exactly the issue. The bar was set so low. He was barely able to put together a coherent response to the infanticide claims, which was something even the lowest of information voters know is a lie. He let Trump walk all over him on immigration even though Biden put together a "bipartisan" plan that was just a Republican wishlist. If Biden had articulated any of that we'd probably be having a different conversion.

[–] MimicJar 56 points 4 months ago (2 children)

We know Trump is a liar.

Biden had to prove he wasn't feeble... and he failed at that.

Voting for Biden and his administration is still 100% the correct decision, but that debate isn't going to convince any swing voters. If you want to use the incumbency advantage you need to convince folks you can stay the course for the next 4 years.

[–] homesweethomeMrL 12 points 4 months ago (2 children)

WE know, and that’s why the debate wasn’t for us. And it was a bad idea from the start - Trump does not deserve to be in a debate. Not that there’s any debating going on.

It was always going to support the ticket that thrives on chaos and idiocy. Always.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 29 points 4 months ago

Truth doesn't really matter in a presidential debate, it's not actually a debate. It's all about appearing superior than your opponent.

[–] dhork 24 points 4 months ago (1 children)

David Tennant in Doctor Who

Don't you think he looks tired?

[–] themeatbridge 18 points 4 months ago

I always kind of hated that bit, because it seemed so unrealistic. And here we are.

Life imitates art.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 4 months ago (5 children)

The only reason I'll still v9te for Biden is because I know the rest of the people around him will be doing the decision making. I think he's a piece of shit for trying to run a 2nd term and potentially losing the Whitehouse to trump over it. You could literally throw any well spoken 50 year old Democrat to run against trump and they'd have a layup for a win. Instead we have to choose between a nutjob liar and a guy who probably could reason himself into a win against a child that rides the short bus. He wasn't great 4 years ago, but he's now very obviously not capable of leading a country.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] Maggoty 12 points 4 months ago (6 children)

You know what the real problem is? Biden reminded me and millions of other people of our frail grandparents in a stressful, scary, situation. We love them, (although I'm not a fan of Biden), but we don't let them drive or end up in those situations.

load more comments (6 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 108 points 4 months ago (5 children)

I’m voting for Biden so don’t give me shit about being a Leftist helping Trump win. But if he does win, remember that Dems had a million chances to run someone better and this is what they let happen. It’ll be their fault if we get more of the bad man.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 4 months ago (4 children)

The dems suspended the primaries in a number of states and more or less coronated Biden.

The Dems believe in democracy only when against the GOP but do not believe in democracy when deciding matters inside their party.

The "Democratic" Party my ass cheeks. Clowns and hypocrites.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Agreed. The coordinated pullout to sabotage Bernie in 2020 was shameful. "Vote for us or you'll be sorry when the GOP takes over" is all they offer.

load more comments (3 replies)
load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 99 points 4 months ago (4 children)

To run a debate with Trump and without live fact checking was just plain stupid. You know he's just going to run his rehearsed talking points without so much as trying to answer even mildly uncomfortable questions. They not only let him get away with serial lying, they basically laid the groundwork so he could get away with it.

Fact checks after the fact never reach the people that need to see them.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] [email protected] 95 points 4 months ago

CNN is essentially owned by John Malone now. It's just Fox News lite.

[–] [email protected] 79 points 4 months ago (7 children)

Are all American "debates" like this? The moderators just let them rattle off lies and skip the questions without challenging them?

[–] givesomefucks 59 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Nope.

Up till this year a non partisan committee handled the debates and lent it an air of impartially and at least tried to hold candidates to the questions.

Both parties decided to boycott those debates, and set up their own with CNN as the host.

I've been bitching about it for months now and everyone's been telling me it'll be fine...

Edit:

2020 debates

https://youtu.be/pjW6WKpSCeQ?si=kwPHhz6XQd4EcVN-&t=1780

[–] njm1314 68 points 4 months ago

Hard disagree. This wasn't unusual. Presidential debates are notorious for moderators being ineffectual and unwilling to challenge lies.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 4 months ago (11 children)

I've never seen a debate where the moderators did a fact check. You'll see candidates call each other out sometimes, but moderators don't actually moderate. Timing answers to be ridiculously short so nothing of substance can be said is also a perennial feature.

load more comments (11 replies)
[–] [email protected] 34 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Pretty much every Trump debate has been like this. This one was actually an improvement from 2020 and 2016 because his microphone was turned off so he wasn't able to just yell over the other person and constantly interrupt.

[–] simplejack 18 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I don’t know if this is an improvement. As many feared, the muted mic saved Trump from himself. I’m sure his staff was actually pretty excited about that rule.

It would prevent him from doing what he did last time, which polled terribly.

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago

Yes. 90% of the time is almost always off topic. Sometimes a candidate spends a whole sentence saying something related, but that's as close to organized as it ever was.

Trump definitely does more personal attacks, but that's about it. I've seen a moderator make a correcting statement once.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 46 points 4 months ago (2 children)

TLDR:

All that's missing is a swastika

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 42 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Someone pointed out, the debate was scheduled for 9pm, with two men over 70. I'm in my 50's, and I'm no good after 8pm. This should have been held in the morning.

The debate was poorly arranged, and once again Biden's incompetent staff contributed by letting it happen.

[–] EurekaStockade 30 points 4 months ago (7 children)

Fair enough, but isn't it reasonable to want the president of the United States to be someone who doesn't fall apart after 9pm?

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] Linkerbaan 35 points 4 months ago (21 children)

Holy cope.

People here actually deluding themselves into Biden falling for Debate tricks instead of saying he "beat Medicare" and "we need Abortion because foreigners are raping women".

[–] Dkarma 25 points 4 months ago (3 children)

If Biden was dead I'd still vote for him over trump.

[–] HauntedCupcake 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Totally, the problem is he should be in a home, and a fresh strapping young lad/lass under the age of 70 (lmao) should be doing these debates instead.

Trump needs to be defeated at all costs, I'm just massively disappointed that this is the guy the democrats chose

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (20 replies)
[–] madcaesar 35 points 4 months ago (8 children)

People need to chill the fuck out.

Do any of you remember the first debate between Kerry and W? W sounded and stammered like a compete moron, and it made no difference.

These debates are a waste of time and Biden should never have agreed to debate a traitor.

[–] Maggoty 16 points 4 months ago

Bush didn't sound nearly this bad. And they also ran such a novel attack campaign it invented a new term, "swift boating". Which is right in line with Trump's gish gallop. Bush was also a war time president.

These situations are not analogous, the dominoes are lined up completely differently.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 33 points 4 months ago (6 children)

He was massively over coached.

The very first thing he needed to say was:

"This man is going to lie to you. He's going to lie the entire time, and probably the only thing he will say true is his name."

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] givesomefucks 31 points 4 months ago (21 children)

If Biden faced a serious primary, we'd have known he was like this months ago and had even more time to find a competent replacement.

But people said it was too late then.

They say it's too late now, but it still isn't.

It's too big of a risk to keep plowing ahead like we're headed to Country Kitchen Buffet...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=op7IMFlE5do

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

You overestimate the risk of this specific event. I do think the DNC and all Americans need a wakeup call before November and this may or may not be it, but the debate is forgettable in 1 week whereas the consequences of these Supreme Court decisions or going to be with us for years to come.

Democrats have other opportunities to energize their base, it's up to them to use these opportunities, and avoid letting Trump dominate every election conversation.

[–] givesomefucks 15 points 4 months ago

You overestimate the risk of this specific event

This isn't a one off thing tho.

This is Biden. He's not going to magically change a bunch of policy positions to align with the Dem platform out of nowhere.

He's not going to magically start acting half his age on the campaign trail.

No malarkey, what you see is what you get.

load more comments (20 replies)
[–] TropicalDingdong 26 points 4 months ago (4 children)

I mean, the Biden camp didn't need to take this debate.

[–] [email protected] 32 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (4 children)

I don't know the details for how far ahead all the rules were decided. I would have assumed months but clearly not.

A BIG news story yesterday was that republicans were angry that there would be live fact checking during the debate. So CNN got rid of that literally the afternoon of the debate. That makes a massive difference because it means that Biden now needed to actively refute the increasingly blatant lies in addition to getting his talking points across.

And the format always went against Biden. His stutter and aphasia do not mix well with short 3 minute responses. With proper debate prep and a focus on talking points, he is mostly good. We had a few moments but even when he was at his most feeble sounding he was fine. But once he had to respond to things like "you are a manchurian candidate" and "you are basically a Palestinian but a bad one"? Then it becomes "okay, call this prick the c-word. Now I need to also cite this fact that is part of my border security answer. And then I need to talk about... jesus christ are we actually talking about global warming right now?"

And that fucked Biden. Because that is not something a POTUS needs to be able to handle. If Kim Jong Un started talking like that during a meeting... we might literally invade North Korea. Almost all meaningful conversation between world leaders is basically heavily scripted speeches or closed door conversations where people acknowledge others are human.

But also? CNN didn't even follow their own format. They repeatedly unmuted candidates (mostly trump but a few times Biden) so they could get a juicy comeback in.

load more comments (4 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] simplejack 24 points 4 months ago (2 children)

IMHO, complaining about the refs feels like grasping for straws.

Biden was rambling, incoherent, and unlike Trump, he couldn’t get on message. And the messaging against Trump ain’t complex. He wants fascism, he’s killing women, covid was a fucking disaster under him, he’s a felon, and he’s lying. Biden struggled to get the basics out in a clear and coherent way.

IMHO, this is NOT the time to keep on and carry on. This debate is early enough that he can still step down and we can have a contested convention. The alternative is fascism. Biden is going to lose this shit.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Why doesn't he just answer every question with:

"Yeah but this is the man who thought shooting up bleach and letting sunlight into your lungs would cure COVID and then said it on TV"

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] reddig33 16 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

When have any of these debates in the past twenty years been “fair”? The democrats knew what they were getting into.

[–] cabron_offsets 14 points 4 months ago (18 children)

Brandon fucked up. Bad. He played into all that bullshit the traitors have been planning. It was truly disheartening.

Look, I’m voting for him. I’ll vote for any D in hopes of stopping the republican traitor filth. But Brandon needs to fuck off. Someone needs to talk sense to him and have him recognize what is right and necessary for the country.

load more comments (18 replies)
[–] peopleproblems 11 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Or maybe we shouldn't have anyone debating a Facist anti-intellectual. Because you can't.

It's like arguing with a toddler. You can't, because even when you are right you are wrong

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›