Ask Lemmy

In my opinion, true patriotism requires being critical of your nation. A patriot doesn't blindly let their nation go to hell. The Republicans that have take the word "patriot" are not patriots, in my opinion. They've ruined the word. A patriot wants to find the issues with their nation and improve them, not yell about being the best and to ignore everything wrong.

Basically, yes. I feel the same as you about the flag, but because it's been used as a symbol of blind faith, not patriotism. I feel patriotic pride in being critical, not in saying a pledge or anything like that.

If nobody ever would identify with a flag we'd have like 1 problem less.

Where I live it's hard to see someone flying an American flag and not immediately assume they're a bigot.

Magats did to the American flag what they think gay people did to the rainbow.

The country where I was born and raised is 900 years old. This implies a lit of history, both good and bad.

The country was literally started because our first king decided he wasn't going to allow his mother and her lover to steal his father's lands. After that, the Pope demanded our country to pay the church a huge sum in order to be recognized, the king said "we'll eventually come to that" and never payed. We were taken over by our neighbouring country at some point because of blood ties and after 75 years we just said "enough is enough, these guys are getting housted". We fought Napoleon. We had a bloody civil war. Somewhere inbetween all of this we decided "Let's build a lot of boats and see where we can go." because the price of spices was to damn high. And more recently we got out of bed for a morning, threw down a fascist dictatorship, and went back to our quiet life. Nobody cares or notices us but yet we have one of the most powerful passports in the world.

But why all of this boasting?

It's cool to have all this history and background. But I don't owe my country nothing. I owe who I am to my family and friends and I owe to the future generations to remember where we come from and teach them the same I learned by myself: we are our country. We decide what we stand for and we represent the values we want to spread.

The government of your land may be corrupt today but it does not have or needs to represent you. And by refusing that, you put up your own resistance. No matter how small, that is resistance. And if you feel your flag needs to be reclaimed, put it upside down.

Stay strong, OP.

Don't forget who took that from you.

I kinda know what you mean... I used to not think anything weird about seeing an American flag, sometimes it even made me feel patriotic. Now when I see a car with an American flag sticker I assume the person driving probably has a loaded gun and is desperate to get into an argument about something

As a German, I feel you.

"All men are created equal"

IS SLAVE STATE

Always has been

It really only feels appropriate to see it upside down these days.

I agree that our history has always been fucked up. But there are degrees of fucked up-ness and we're officially leaving the measurement scale.

It's fucking over.

What you're feeling is rationality. Nationalism is an extension of basic primal instinct humans have developed to protect their tribe, but it is only detrimental to modern life.

Here's an alternative take to upset the boring consensus here.

Patriotic pride (not necessarily nationalism) is the inevitable product of social cohesion. A society which is cohesive is one where people look at strangers and see them as members of their tribe - essentially, as extended family. It's a society where citizens are therefore willing to pay high taxes to fund those strangers' welfare benefits, for example. No welfare state has ever arisen in a country without this essential quality. Almost by definition, social cohesion is closely correlated with patriotism. In the world's most redistributive countries - I'm talking about Scandinavia, of course - you will see more national flags than you might think given their "leftist" reputation. In Sweden, ordinary houses sometime have flagpoles in the garden, I've seen them. None of this is coincidental.

Patriotism can be a dangerous slippery slope, yes. But it's also what empowers strong states and collective action. Nobody wants a patriotism-free world more than the billionaires that everyone hates here. Be careful what you wish for.

No

No

Every time I see flags out in public, it just reminds me of authority.

I don't like authority, from schools administrators to employers, or even parents, fuck them all, wannabe fascists.

Flags, school logos, corporate logos, or the concept of the "family name" its all the same. (I'd change the family name if it doesn't cause so much paperwork trouble)

Maybe this flag as a replacement?

Patriotism leads to nationalism, xenophobia, and racism. Not always, of course, but often enough to make it a horrible thing. Our communities are only as good as we make them, and any notion that presupposes greatness is antithetical to continued improvement.

I am a US citizen but have been living abroad for the last 4.5 years. I can get by with Norwegian language but didn’t really feel hyper compelled to speak it all the time as English is spoken widely and well here. But especially since the inauguration it’s like, I don’t want strangers to realise that not only am I a foreigner, I’m an American. I try to be a good ambassador through my actions and words, but there’s only so much I can do to distance myself from broad brush strokes of “Americans” anymore and honestly is embarrassing. Also I feel deeply sad that I feel like I can never go home. That place just isn’t real anymore.

No. The ~~Great Value Bars and Stars~~ Stars and Stripes make me feel nothing but shame right now.

It's a good step to consider patriotic ideology as prelude to fascism and tribalism. Welcome in the world of great oportunities, free from borders and labels put with force in your mind. Welcome there, human!

youre not alone. the american flag makes me sick. overt patriotism has been coopted by magats, and its hard to see it any other way.

if someone feels the need to wave the american flag, i feel the need to be suspicious of your lack of empathy and possible fascist undertones. sorry.

I'm with you. I'm on vacation in a foreign country. There was a performance and part of it was asking the crowd where they were from. I felt no enthusiasm when the performer asked the crowd to cheer if they were from the USA. It felt shameful.

Welcome to the club. People from other countries have these thoughts for some time already.

Even as a kid, I never understood how the USA flag could be a symbol of "freedom" while conscription exists. Today it has gone from a generally indifferent lie to borderline offensive

On a semi-related note, I’m glad that Superman’s motto was updated to “Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow” back in 2021.

Team america, world police

We suck.

If you think every time you see the US flag the person with it is a fascist get off the internet for a while. Most people are not nazis.

You are not wrong. Seeing jingoism and corporatized patriotism for the sham that they are really opens your eyes to how much of it truly exists. A person who wants no politics in life is often fine with a national anthem, a gigantic flag stretched across a stadium, with jets flying over for a Cheez-It Citrus Bowl and has absolutely no idea that it is political propaganda for nationalism and perpetual war.

In my 50+years here, it has only gotten worse and worse. We've always stuck our military where it doesn't belong, back to the beginning with genociding indigenous peoples here. Now we stick military bases all over the planet and strong arm every other nation into unbalanced alliance. We create conflict for oil and to line the pockets of defense contractors. We aid those currently committing genocide and protect the perpetrators from receiving international justice. Nationalism and fascism snap together like two magnets.

Every time I am told to stand for a national anthem at a professional for-profit sporting event, I think of these things and remain sitting.

My hunch – both the Red Tribe and the Blue Tribe, for whatever reason, identify “America” with the Red Tribe. Ask people for typically “American” things, and you end up with a very Red list of characteristics – guns, religion, barbecues, American football, NASCAR, cowboys, SUVs, unrestrained capitalism.

That means the Red Tribe feels intensely patriotic about “their” country, and the Blue Tribe feels like they’re living in fortified enclaves deep in hostile territory.

https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anything-except-the-outgroup/

Look for the helpers

No, you've started to see things more clearly.