Ask Lemmy

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" - I think Samuel Johnson's original meaning, of complaining about "false" patriots, strongly applies to your distaste for the flag. The idiots we see proudly waving their country flags (in Brazil, that'd be the bozonaristas) are using them as a cover for their prejudices and stupidity. They wouldn't be able to name a single thing they like about the country they love.

Not from the US but when I see my country's flag I don't really feel anything. In theory I've got two flags, both the Scottish one and the Union Jack but they both elicit the same lack of reaction. Countries are just social and geographical facts. Getting angry or elated at the sight of a flag is a bit like having an emotional reaction to the moon; I suppose it's possible in some circumstances but most of the time it's just there and you shrug.

Nope, sme thing hppened tobme in Canada after the clown convoy. Canada Day was never the same nor celebrated since

I don’t think you’re wrong at all.

Personally, I don’t hate the flag because for me it represents ideals that should be for everyone and that I should be fighting oppression of those against the dream. I have a very Captain America-esque view.

What I cringe and have disgust with are the citizens that want to tear down these just ideals or misrepresent and distort what we should be.

Do USian school children still talk to that bit of fabric every morning - or is that a myth? From an outsider’s perspective I always put the US just below, uh, post-Weimar republic Germany in the excessive flag club chart placings. Always seemed excessively jingoistic.

Best of luck with your country…

No. I saw a lady driving with two USA flags on the sides of her car yesterday. I assume this is her alternative to having a Trump sticker, since that shit would likely engender a negative response in the Bay Area (specifically Oakland / Berkeley). She just looked dumb as fuck. I was embarrassed for her.

Don't be ashamed to be ashamed of your country. If you're also a USA citizen, we have a lot to be ashamed about. But also don't give up. Fight back. Don't let them slow-roll to victory by causing us to go numb.

No, you shouldn’t, because nearly half the country voted against Trump. It wasn’t enough, but it certainly indicates a significant portion of the country opposes him and the ideologies behind him. What we, as Americans, should be ashamed of is our pathetic educational system, which is at the root of this problem.

Both Republicans and Democrats are at the core of this problem. Republicans don’t want any public education at all and Democrats have polluted public education with Far Left propaganda that has fueled conservative rage and helped Far Right people divide the nation. Race and gender issues have eclipsed class issues, which are the real problems of the nation. As much as LGBT and racial groups deserve their particular rights, the real divisions at the heart of America are between the middle- and working-classes and the ultra-rich. Corporations are the prime devil that need to be taken down, not White men. Plenty of White men are suffering at the hands of corporations and they need to be woken up. The most recent election has shown that non-Whites are just as susceptible to Trump’s charms as anyone else. We need to stop focusing on superficial divisors such as race and gender and start focusing on class divisors much more.

No, you're right to feel that way. While most Americans aren't terrible people, enough of us are that we allowed fascism to take over and we will have to carry that shame with us for the rest of our lives. It Happened Here.

However you feel is not "wrong", and in this case pretty understandable.

Here in Australia I don't have a problem with the flag itself, but there seems to be a strong correlation with people putting flags on their cars and being racist assholes.

The American flag has become more a symbol of nationalism to me than a symbol of patriotism. It represents everything I hate about my country, and none of the things I love.

this is what free speech is all about, you should never feel wrong for feeling gross about how your country is fucking up

The same happens in Spain if you are leftist since the civil war, even before maybe.

Totally healthy! I started that when my friends died in Iraq or came back without limbs and sustaining life long trauma. But newbies always welcome 😁

I hate even dressing up on July 4th for fear of looking like a capitol raiding moron. It didn't use to be like this, and frankly, it's depressing as fuck. I used to be very proud of my nation, and the progress we'd made in my short lifespan. We legalized gay marriage, elected a black president, tried to get healthcare for all (didn't work and we all know why), but I genuinely felt optimistic about our nation and the future. 4 years of Trump did a number on my sense of patriotism, and were only 1 months in to Trump 2.0 and he's dealt a knockout blow to it. I genuinely cringe seeing any amount of national pride now.

I'd say the only reason you didn't feel that before was ignorance, the American flag is NOT a thing of good. It has been fucked up from the very beginning. And to us who are not Americans, it's very obvious how much your country absolutely forces brainwashing of all citizens from the second they're born. American patriotism and love for the flag etc. is in the same way that for example a priest shows how much they're against homosexuality and other sins like it then they're found with child-p (I don't want to fully write it) and stuff like that. It's the school bully that screams about how cool and strong they are, when they're exactly the opposite.

The greatest lie the Right ever told that the Left bought hook line and sinker was that they were the ones who represented America.

The thing is, while the US has it's horrible history and present, the people who fought for the ideals we're supposed to have are also just as much American as any conservative asshole. MLK Jr was American. Frederick Douglass was American. John Brown was American. Mister Rogers was American. Abolitionists. Suffragists. Union fighters. People fighting for fixing the problems, righting the wrongs, holding our country accountable for it's own ideals, are just as much a part of that flag.

The assholes laid claim to that flag and the people who are aware of the problems, who have legitimate concerns with the bullshit this country has done and continues to do, accidentally let them.

In elementary school, I was all about patriotism. The flag was cool. we (country) were the bad-ass owners of our own fate and we're cool. We are the melting pot, by the people for the people.

Up through Desert Shield, I was still like yay, America.

W lost his luster, I got old enough to feel the embarrassment of broccoli and NUCULER. I wasn't rah rah anymore, but those that are, live and let live right?

Dixie flag wavers were racists, that was easy, but the 1776 flag, will maybe they're historians.

I was mostly over our the right's shit by Clinton. But then Clinton had some of his own disturbing shit.

When Trump hit the first time, I saw, 30-40% of the population throwing flags up and starting fascist fights. Complete and Immediate disillusion.

At his point, someone flying the US flag is a BIG red flag. The Dixie flag is stupid racists, The 1776 flag is libertarians who fall into camps between uninformed and uninformed racists pop it up there with the don't tread on me bullshit.

At this point, if you're not retired military from a better time, there's very little you can do to show me you can fly an American flag and not be a horrible person.

If nobody ever would identify with a flag we'd have like 1 problem less.

Tbh I think flag hate or angst is about as useful/less as flag worship. If you need something to be preoccupied with, why not make it a problem you can put that energy into doing something about where you live - like homeless people or food aid.

I might be reacting this way because I've been getting recent emails from my college about changing the school mascot, which is a "pioneer". When I was there I don't remember even being aware that there was a mascot. But apparently they think "pioneer" might be too closely associated with colonialism and they've decided this is an important issue. My attitude is create a Native American scholarship (or anything that actually does something) - don't obsess on imagery.

In my opinion, true patriotism requires being critical of your nation. A patriot doesn't blindly let their nation go to hell. The Republicans that have take the word "patriot" are not patriots, in my opinion. They've ruined the word. A patriot wants to find the issues with their nation and improve them, not yell about being the best and to ignore everything wrong.

Basically, yes. I feel the same as you about the flag, but because it's been used as a symbol of blind faith, not patriotism. I feel patriotic pride in being critical, not in saying a pledge or anything like that.

For me it's been longer than that. I am a queer Canadian and anytime I have travelled the US or stayed with friends and seen any group carrying or wearing American flags that hasn't given me the "ick" so much as rung alarm bells that those people are not safe.

Thing is, it's the same thing with the Canadian flag. Any group flying too many Canadian flags outside of Canada Day is likely to be Conservative and anti-queer. Anti-Trans protesters or anti-vaxxers on highway overpasses? Canadian flag. Lifted truck soaring down the highway with a "Fuck Trudeau" bumper sticker - Canada flag. Hoard of protesters demanding book bans, group of people protesting Pride with a "you are gunna burn pedos" sign, antiDEI crusader mob - Canadian flag. It doesn't take long before one starts to draw certain conclusions about a person's character when they wave it around. For those of us trans folk who can it's a sign to hide. A literal red flag.

Amoungst the left up here the flag is a complicated symbol. Many of us on the West Coast see it as a symbol of colonial practice and an insensitive declaration of an occupying nation on stolen territory for people who are still here and whose original sovereignty is still not properly acknowledged. It's not a symbol of pride and if personally used as such it's a sign of insensitivity and work to be done. At the same time I would not say that I am not proud of my Country for how far we've come. We are a nation in therapy who has the opportunity to put the work in to getting over some really bad murderous and selfish flaws and try new things to make things right. When I had an American friend up here it took a bit for him to understand how seriously the effort is to recon with our past and he treated us like a utopia of leftist sentiment but it is like therapy, yeah we might be putting the work in - but we can see how much further we need to go and praise doesn't hit us as "job well done" it's a reminder of how shitty it still is. But if anyone ever thinks that this complicated and nuanced relationship to country would stop us from rallying together to fight to preserve our rights to keep working towards that better future they would be dead wrong.

So I understand pretty well where you're coming from but for a lot of us this isn't a particularly new thing. It just is affecting more and more people as they wake up to realizing how these symbols are used.

You tell me, man. Over here in Brazil, seeing a national flag outside the context of "it's world cup match day" generally signals whoever is flying it is a fascist twat.

"All men are created equal"

IS SLAVE STATE

Always has been

Where I live it's hard to see someone flying an American flag and not immediately assume they're a bigot.

Magats did to the American flag what they think gay people did to the rainbow.