Ask Lemmy

To tell any other story in the Star Wars universe, you must first retcon the Original Trilogy.

See, the Original Trilogy established that the "dark side" was a temptation for every Jedi. Like cocaine or meth for modern humans: addictive poison that gives a temporary rush of power.

That's great for the whole spiritual, mystic, two-wolves-within-you conflict Luke went through. His victory was overcoming his shortcomings in the form of fear and anger.

But it's actually terrible for any story made afterwards.

On the one hand, you can't now make a story where, "maybe the Jedi were excessively stoic." without also inadvertently making the argument that Luke was maybe... wrong?... to conquer his emotions? It undermines Luke's conflict.

On the other hand, you also can't make the Dark Side totally evil without flattening Vader's character. When Luke loses himself to fear in Episode 5 and to anger in Episode 6, he proves that the Dark Side doesn't sink its teeth into you and control you permanently after a single moment of weakness. Even after losing yourself to the Dark Side, you can still observe how it is hurting your loved ones and then choose to pull yourself out of it, conquering your fear and anger in order to protect them. Exactly as Luke does for Vader, and exactly as Vader does immediately after for Luke.

Which means Anakin was just... one-dimensional up until that point. Weak. Too simple to be a protagonist. He wakes up to find he's killed Padme, and yet still doesn't turn his life around and learn to fight the temptation of the Dark Side? He hunts down and kills Jedi who had nothing to do with his fall, and yet never looks into their eyes to realize he's fallen?

No matter how you look at it, it just... doesn't work.

That's why the prequels retconned the Jedi into something morally ambiguous. And why the sequels retconned them into a past that needed killing. It's why the Clone Wars animated series turned the Jedi into a bureaucratically anti-emotion order. And why a lot of video games added lore where the Jedi actually committed genocide against the Sith. It's also why pretty much none of these other media talk about the Dark Side in the same tone as the OT.

The second the OT ended, the Dark Side could no be longer a "temptation". It had to became a faction. An unjustly vilified piece of humanity. An ethnic group.

Because you can't have a "dark side" and have complicated, nuanced characters and extensive world-building: either A) the world will fall apart, B) the characters will be woefully inconsistent, or C) all of the above.

So every, single time you want to make new Star Wars media, you have to retcon the "Dark Side" essentially out of existence.

The Obi Wan show should’ve had more seasons and every single finale should’ve been him beating the shit out of Darth Vader every single time.

My take on Star Wars is that it is about as bad as SciFi can get. It is a Grimm fairy tale from someone who has read Dune without understanding it and the skills to pull it through.

It all fucking sucks ass except for empire and andor

Hot take? Obi-Wan doesn't need to be on the high ground, the high ground just needs to exist within the battle;

Obi-Wan knows that when he has the low ground, he really has the high ground, from a certain point of view; see Diagram A.

Look at his battle record:

Maul: Has low ground, wins Example A

Dooku: No high ground, loses

Dooku rematch: No high ground, loses Example B.

Greivous: Has low ground, wins Example C

Vader: Has high ground, wins

Vader rematch: No high ground, loses

Obi-Wan with the high/low ground is canonically the most powerful Jedi. This is fact. Had Yoda not denied his request to battle The Senate with typical Jedi arrogance, Obi-Wan could have defeated Palpatine in the Senate building, which housed a variety of different altitudes; this was designed so that the Chancellor could always have the moral high ground in political debates. But Obi-wan didn't fight The Senate, and Yoda soon learned that you can't cleave the Sheev in a normal 1v1. It took the Tusken Raiders years of conflict against Old Ben Kenobi to grasp his superiority in terrain advantage, as you see them visibly flee in ANH when they realize he holds the low (inverse-high) ground; this was the optimal strategy against a near-invincible opponent.

Yoda is shorter than virtually every other fighter, which gives him a permanent low-ground disadvantage; however, his saber-fighting style utilizes a flipping-heavy technique in order to negate this weakness for a temporary window. You'll notice that, after falling from the central podium in The Senate's building, he immediately retreats upon realizing he is on the lowest ground. You'll also notice that, while training Luke, he rides on him like a mount, to gain the intellectual high ground and accelerate Luke's training. Example D . Obi-Wan's defensive Form III lightsaber style synergizes with his careful military maneuvers; as he only strikes when prepared, he can always hold the strategic high ground. (The business on Cato Neimodia doesn't count.) You'll come to realize that this is why Commander Cody's artillery strike failed against Obi-Wan, when hundreds of Jedi were killed in similar attacks. Cody failed to grasp the strategic situation, as the Jedi Master's elevation was superior to his by hundreds of meters, making him virtually unkillable. (You'll notice that all the Jedi killed in Order 66 were on level ground with the clones, thereby assuring their demise.) Had Cody taken his time and engaged the Jedi on even terrain, he would have succeeded. Obi-Wan subsequently retreated under the surface of the lake, so that he could maintain the topographical low/high ground. This is why Obi-Wan is so willing to fight against impossible odds to the point where he thrusts himself in immediate danger; when your probability of victory is 1-to-10, you have the statistical (and therefore strategic) low ground, a numerical advantage when you use your point of view to flip the value to 10/1 . Almost losing is, in Obi-Wan's case, certain victory. (See Example E). In ANH, Vader proves his newfound mastery by engaging Obi on perfectly even ground. However, Obi-Wan intentionally sacrifices himself on the Death Star, so that he could train Luke from a higher plane of existence, thereby giving him the metaphysical high ground Example G.

Why was Vader so invested in the construction and maintenance of the Death Star? Because he knows Obi-wan can't have the high ground if there's no ground left. Image A. As seen through the events of the Clone Wars, Obi-Wan was known to be on friendly terms with Senator Organa, whose homeworld held large quantities of mountainous terrain, the perfect habitat for a Jedi Master. Grand Moff Tarkin was already in position to destroy Alderaan as a first target, as the distance from Scarif to Alderaan was too vast to reach between the escape and recapture of the Tantive IV, even at 1.0 lightspeed. Alderaan had been the initial target all along, as Obi-Wan with the high ground was the primary threat to the Death Star. How? Because a moon-sized space station would have some form of gravitational pull, thereby negating Obi-Wan's zero-gravity weakness; Obi-Wan with the perpetual high-ground in a low-orbit starfighter would easily be able to fire proton torpedoes through a ventilation shaft, although the Empire was uncertain of the specific weakness of the Death Star planted by Galen Erso (who was a good friend).

A common misconception is the idea of a 'prostrate position' version of the high ground, wherein Obi-Wan lies flat on his back, giving him tactical superiority from his point of view. However, this strategy is futile, as for the high ground to come into effect, there must be a differential between parties on both the x-axis and y-axis to a moderately significant variation from both absolutes (Angles only a Sith would deal in). For Obi-Wan's high ground powers to be in full effect, he must stand between 15 and 75 degrees (π/12 to 5π/12 radians) diagonal from his opponent(s) on any quadrant of the area circle; this has been dubbed the Trigonometric Perspective Diagram. (Diagram B). The total effect for conventional high ground advantage can be calculated via the MetaComm Equation, or f(x) = lim 0→x π/12 | 7π/12 5π/12 | 11π/12 Ʃ(x) (2tan(x) / 3sin(x) + (log10Δ)) * Φ

'x' refers to the angle of contact between the two parties on, with advantage being based purely on position on the Y-axis, as the vast majrity of force users base their perception on elevation rather than spacial relativity. Δ refers to distance (measured in meters) between units on the hypotenuse; distance has some effect in tactical advantage during typical skirmishes, but accurate values for Δ based on equipped weapon are not finalized. The power of gravitational force has great effect on the high ground; too weak, and the high ground holds no traction; too strong and the ground becomes the real enemy. Experimentation has proven that the high ground typically holds significant value between .8 and 1.4 β (Earth Gravity) with maximum impact standing roughly equal to 1.05. Pressure is equally important, as it is a surrounding force attached to gravity (the high ground has famously low impact in aquatic environments). Pressure(λ) is measured in pounds per square inch (psi), to be used as a gavity multiplier (or division if pressure is sub-atmospheric; a pressure of 0 would theoretically negate the high ground, due to the high ground not existing without gravity. This is merely speculation, however, as the gravity value still exists, thereby defining the high and low grounds). Φ (Surrounding Force) is a variable defined as β * 2.2λ , with no metric value assigned due to its singular application in the MetaComm equations.

In situations regarding Obi-Wan and his relativistic point of view, you must substitute the Quadrilateral MetaComm Equation (the Jedi Master function), f(x) = lim 0→x minmaxƩ (2tan(x) / 3sin(x) ) * (1.2)Φ [min = (|cos(x)| = 1) | (|sin(x)| = 1) + π/12 ), max = (|cos(x)| = 1) | (|sin(x)| = 1) + 5π/12 ]. The viable Φ field is expanded, as Obi-Wan has taken advantage of the high ground in so many different environments that he simply uses it more efficiently, and the min/max values apply due to his multidimensional point of view, evidenced by the Trigonometric Perspective Diagram. Additionally, the distance factor does not affect Obi-Wan, as spacetime can be perspectively compressed, giving him the ideal Δ value from his point of reference.

In conclusion, Obi-Wan abuses spatial relativity and Taoist doctrine in order to always invoke his high-ground powers. To properly analyze the strategic genius of Kenobi, one must hold advanced knowledge in Philosophy, Mathematics, and Calculus-based Physics, and be able to integrate these topics together. The impact of research in Obi-Wan's mastery of the high ground ranges from military purposes to spiritual nirvana, although progress moves slowly (but this is actually a benefit, as it gives academia plenty of opportunities to publish studies, thereby giving us the scholastic high ground.) Most importantly, if you find yourself standing on the low ground- don't try it.

Dune is what Star Wars wanted to be. (I’m talking the movies)

The shouldn't have made a sequel trilogy without coming out with a plan

The best stories are revan and bane. The bane books and Kotor 1. Thats my take on it anyway

I know it's not a hot take but I'll rant.

who the hell had to make Rey a Palpatine and Palpatine not die. that wasn't epic, that was dumb af.

Darth jar jar would have been wayyy more compelling, funny, etc.

sometimes dead is bettah.

they could have gone a different route with snoke. he was the only compelling new guy and they made him the old guy. bahhh

George Lucas's writing in the OT was atrocious.

My hot take, is that star wars pieces of media are only considered "good" if the viewer was too young to perceive the politics in the work when they first saw it. There are exceptions like rogue one/andor, but I think it mostly holds.

The only good thing that came out of the prequels was the pod racing game on the Nintendo 64.

You want a HOT take on Star Wars?

I love it. All of it. Games, movies, shows. All. Of. It. Sure, I've got some critiques, but even the prequels/sequels are a thrill ride. I love Star Wars and I don't care about some dork on the internet's opinion on it.

Mine is they shouldn't have made the sequel series without ~~George as a consultant~~ a plan

Every discussion about the fall of the Jedi and the Republic proves that Star Wars fans don't know shit about Star Wars.

Luke Skywalker's story is a retelling of Nuada Airgetlám, the first king of the Tuatha de Dannan, in a sci-fi fantasy setting.

Because there is a cultural Zeitgeist about this even if it is not well known, it had a better well of mythology to pull from and therefore it had more impact than the sequels and prequels which were repulled from the saga of Luke Skywalker in the original trilogy.

I think the lack of depth for all of the movies since the original trilogy come from the fact that they do not tap into any other sources than their own source, leaving them all feeling hollow and sterile compared to the original.

At this point, Star Wars is just a setting. The reason Star Wars shows/movies continue to be so divisive is because people expect the tone/genre of their favorite piece of Star Wars content.

For example, expecting to like Acolyte because you liked Rogue One is ridiculous. They have almost nothing in common. You wouldn’t expect to like Dr Strange because you liked Dunkirk.

Just because it has a Star Wars brand on it doesn’t mean it will be anything like other things with the Star Wars brand. Expecting that will lead to disappointment.

I find Jedi boring and have always been way more interested in the space fleet battles/logistics/tactics. As a kid I would watch RotJ and fast forward through the ground/throne room scenes just to watch the space battles. I still know exactly where all the scene cuts are.

The original trilogy was awesome because George Lucas did not have full creative control. The editors (Paul Hirsch, Marcia Lucas and Richard Chew) prevented a new hope from being a complete dumpster fire. The prequels had too much George Lucas, and the sequels had too much ... I dunno? Decisions by managers or something?

Anyway it seems The Mandalorian was awesome because it was a passion project by true OT fans. The franchise needs to wait for that type of project instead of just green lighting half hearted crap by folks trying to extract value out of star wars.