this post was submitted on 04 Dec 2024
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It's a rare example of English being simpler than other languages, so I'm curious if it's hard for a new speaker to keep the nouns straight without the extra clues.

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[–] frankenswine 138 points 4 days ago (3 children)

not at all. it simplifies the learning experience by quite a bunch.

one of the more confusing is learning other gendered languages where the gender of some object is different to the one in your mother tongue

[–] [email protected] 39 points 4 days ago (1 children)

To make matters worse, some languages have the exact same word but with a different gender. Heat in Spanish is el calor but in Catalán is la calor

[–] [email protected] 49 points 4 days ago (1 children)

To make matters even worse, in some languages the exact same word with different gender has different meaning.

In German:
"der Band", male, = a (book) volume
"das Band", neutral, = ribbon
"die Band", female = (music) band

Bonus: "die Bande" can be a gang, a sports barrier, and (relationship) ties.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 days ago

It's sure nice not having to learn German. I'm a native.

[–] Zombiepirate 14 points 4 days ago

one of the more confusing is learning other gendered languages where the gender of some object is different to the one in your mother tongue

That's something I hadn't really considered. Interesting!

[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 days ago

Yeah I basically never thought about the gender of English nouns because there's very few reasons to

[–] umbraroze 12 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I'm a Finnish speaker. Nouns aren't gendered in Finnish either, so that's not weird.

Things that do trip me up:

  • Pronouns (lack of T/V distinction (i.e. just one "you") and gendered third person)
  • Articles (Finnish doesn't have articles as such, so adding them sometimes takes some brainpower)
  • so freaking many irregular verbs etc
  • seriously what is this orthography even (Finnish grammar may be complex, but the same can't be said of the pronunciation)

Actually, I'm learning French right now and gendered nouns aren't even that much of a problem. I was dreading the numerals more.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago

Wait does Finnish not have gendered third person pronouns?

[–] Taniwha420 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

We actually do have a second person singular, "thou." We just transitioned out of using it because 'politeness'. Thou could useth the second person singular, but thou would soundeth quite archaic. (Think I conjugated that correctly.) You can still see it used in some religious texts in reference to God.

[–] Zombiepirate 5 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

I believe it'd be thou wouldst sound archaic or thou soundest [most] archaic, in early modern English depending on the tense, but that's a great point.

[–] Taniwha420 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I think you're right. I didn't think the "helper words" in the conditional should get conjugated, but I grabbed a Book of Common Prayer off the shelf and there's a bunch of "thou shalt" + infinitive, so evidently the conditional does get conjugated (in addition to "thou didst" and "thou hast".) Pretty sure I noticed some 2nd person weak verbs that looked like they had the same conjugation as the 3rd person (eg "Remember thou keep holy ...") I did note "he cometh", so maybe that -eth ending is actually an older conjugation for the 3rd person that later morphed into an -s ending? Just noticed "he saith (says)", and the confirmed -eth ending on a bunch of 3rd person congregations. Interestingly, I found a LOT of "thou shalt", some "thou wilt", but no "thou couldst" or "thou wouldst". Probably because the BCP is all like, "you WILL, this is not an option, sinner."

I don't know though! I'm a typical English first language speaker and I'm just going with what feels right and using my understanding of grammar from my French education.

[–] Zombiepirate 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

It does get confusing! I'm kind of a Shakespeare nerd, and the cult I was in till I was a young adult was big on the King James Version of the bible, so I guess I've just had a lot of exposure. I don't really know the rules.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

About as confusing as some people being nongendered. You get used to it pretty quickly, and it becomes a non-issue.

[–] [email protected] 37 points 4 days ago (1 children)

no, we just learn that "der", "die", "das", "den", "dem" all translate to "the"

[–] [email protected] 13 points 4 days ago

Took German and college and the reverse really sucked with those forms of the

[–] Matriks404 7 points 3 days ago

Not a problem at all for me.

[–] TankovayaDiviziya 21 points 4 days ago

If you want to be more confused, you should know that some languages have gendered verbs.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

Non-gendered wording isn't exclusive to English, it's mostly other European languages that stick to doing that.

There are some languages that don't even have different words for "he" and "she".

Edit: made the wording less asshole-y

[–] Zombiepirate 21 points 4 days ago (3 children)

Non-gendered wording isn't exclusive to English. Asia exists.

I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

Thanks for the insight!

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[–] Shardikprime 5 points 3 days ago

Not confusing at all, Spanish and English are very flexible languages

[–] [email protected] 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Swedish has genders, but not male/female but utrum/neutrum.

These are not really rule bound, and has to be learned word by word.

Some words are even double gendered but means different things depending on what gender is used.

Example

"En borr" / "borren" = a drill / the drill

"Ett borr" / "borret" = a drill bit / the drill bit.

But to answer your question, English is in many ways simpler than Swedish, you can specify any article by just putting "the" in front of it. In Swedish you need to select the proper -en/-et suffix with no real hard snd fast rule.

Where english is annoying is compound words.

"Realisationsvinstbeskattning" is the longest word in the Swedish dictionary, it is made up of three separate words,

Realisation - Sale

Vinst - Revenue

Beskattning - taxation

So the word simply means taxation on sale revenue.

According to Guinness book of world records the longest Swedish from 2006 the longest Swedish word is:

nordvästersjökustartilleriflygspaningssimulatoranläggningsmaterielunderhållsuppföljningssystemdiskussionsinläggsförberedelsearbeten

But that is just ridiculous and looks like it comes from a report for the military where someone made the word because they could and enjoyed languages.

Lets break it down into individual words

nord-väster-sjö-kust-artilleri-flyg-spanings-simulator-anläggnings-materiel-underhålls-uppföljnings-system-diskussions-inläggs-förberedelse-arbeten

I am on mobile and the word would take too long to translate here, but it means

"Preparatory groundwork for the discussion on maintenance systems for materials used in the coastal artillery's flight reconnaissance simulator covering the north western costal sector."

The issue with English for a Swedish speaker is the lack of compound words, making Swedes used to separating compound words when writing. Which can have fun results:

Herrskjorta = mens button down shirts

Herr skjorta = Mr. Skjorta

Kassapersonal = Cashier

Kassa personal = terrible staff members

[–] lookmomnodrugs 3 points 3 days ago

I am learning a lot here. I am also Swedish lol. I was however great with the English classes, easily top 3 (okay honestly though I am being humble, I was really dominating those classes up until high school, so hard I dont even remember anyone even being in second or third place)

It sounds obnoxius but its true, if you also had a negative reaction to my story like myself, please find relief in that it was my peak and that I am single since years with heavy substance abuse going on the daily - also let me delete this in a bit okay bye lol

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 days ago (3 children)

Technically English is my third languge, but also simultaneously my most fluent.

In short, not confusing at all. Because in Chinese (any variation of Chinese) nouns are also not gendered.

Pronouns in Chinese are also not gendered

He = 他 (tā)

She = 他 (tā)

No confusion with pronouns either. My parents constantly say he when refering to a woman, or she when refering to a man, or mix them up while talking about the same person in the same conversation. No me tho, I never get confused. I learned English at like grade 2-3.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago (1 children)

There used to be Doctor/Doctrix, actor/actress, etc but it has gone by the by in the last few decades. There’s still dog/bitch, ram/ewe, cow/bull etc.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 3 days ago (3 children)

I still use actress, does that make me sound weird? Same for masseuse/masseur, waiter/waitress, hostess/steward (on a plane) and I can't think of anything else right now.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Not a single word on that list would even ping on my radar if you said it near me, except for "Masseur." If you said "Masseur" near me, I would think "oh, fancy." -Native English speaker from SE USA

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[–] Treczoks 17 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

The nouns still are gendered. Only the article is gender-neutral.

Tarzan is a man. He lives in the jungle.

Jane is a woman. She is visiting Africa.

The elephant is a non-named animal. It eats fruits and leaves.

If you really want to know a confusing issue about the English language, just look at the pronunciation of words. It is more or less rule-free, and all over the place. Don't believe me? Try to read the poem "The Chaos" aloud. Even most native speakers need several attempts.

[–] Tujio 17 points 4 days ago (3 children)

It still bugs me that Sean Bean's name doesn't rhyme.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

That's because Sean isn't an English word.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Most English words aren't English words, which doesn't help.

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[–] Treczoks 7 points 4 days ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 7 points 4 days ago
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[–] [email protected] 12 points 4 days ago (2 children)

It’s not confusing at all, except in the very specific case of nouns referring to people or animals that don’t have gendered variants.

For example, in my language, the word corresponding to “(a) sheep” has a masculine and feminine form, with the feminine used neutrally. Consequently, when seeing “sheep” in English, I assume the feminine and seeing it used with “he” is a bit of cognitive dissonance.

Similarly, most words for human professions are by default masculine.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 days ago

I remember reading a story written in English, and it kept mentioning „the cook“ (no pronoun, no name). My gender biased brain assumed the cook must be male. So I got confused when the pronoun „she“ finally appeared. I had to reread the paragraph to understand what was going on.
Embarrassing and eye opening.

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[–] rtxn 16 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Try Finnish or Hungarian, even their pronouns are genderless.

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 days ago (4 children)

Easy, no problems at all. English articles are what breaks my head.

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[–] olafurp 12 points 4 days ago

Not at all, it's easier that other gendered languages since object genders get shuffled up.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Not.

English is a very straigh forward to learn language.

Now, an English native speaker learning a gender declining language... oh, how fun to watch.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I find it fairly easy to learn but insanely difficult to master

[–] clockwork_octopus 3 points 3 days ago

Most of us who are native English speakers haven’t mastered it either, so you’re not alone

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[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

For the most part I don't think about it at all. I guess you only consider things when they cause extra effort, in this case it mostly doesn't so it's very unconscious. That said, I generally use the few gendered ones I know (I listed in another comment) because it is the way my native language works.

By the way, from grammar perspective English is a very simple language. Compared to similar languages (French, Italian etc.), for example, verbs are much simpler too. The harder part of English I think has to do with pronounce.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 3 days ago

Not all other languages have gendered nouns. Articles and affixes are usual points of pain I see (as someone who grew up in a monolingual English-speaking household), and of course the whole orthography mess with spelling is terrible (how can ough have like 6 or 8 pronounciations?!). If you want fun, some languages have distinctions between inanimate and animate things as well as cases that don't exist in English as well if you want to look in fun other features.

Edit: I meant to say prepositions. Affixes is often more in the other direction

[–] [email protected] 10 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You get used to it. The other way around is likely a lot harder, considering that a new concept is being introduced.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 3 days ago

Not at all, we don't do gendered words. The fact that pronouns are gendered still baffles me.

[–] astanix 6 points 4 days ago

As someone trying to learn Spanish I wish there was no gendering in Spanish. It makes the language significantly harder to learn.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Slavic native speaker here.
Not at all. Much simpler, in contrast with German.

There are few gendered nouns, like a spoke(man/woman/person), act(or/ress), etc.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 4 days ago

Arabic speaker here and now that you mention it, the way sentences can get very long without a way to tell what the fourth "it" in the sentence refers to can be a bit of a pain, as is having to reword said sentences when writing to avoid ambiguity, but what you're thinking of there is declensions more than gendered nouns themselves. I mean gender doesn't hurt to have but it's the fact that in other European languages words change shape depending on their role in the sentence that's making the difference here.

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