"I feel like criticizing today."
"You've been criticizing all week Dave, someone has to shovel the cow shit."
this post was submitted on 06 Mar 2024
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Just be French, criticizing becomes part of everything
So does equality, hence the criticism
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If a society is to function people need to be doing the work that isn't enjoyable as well as the work that's enjoyable.
There's likely not enough people that get genuine enjoyment out of being a garbage man or sewer maintenance worker for a world with everyone doing what they want to work.
You have to add incentives for the less desirable labour or else the system collapses under its own weight.
The USSR gave early retirement to those that worked undesirable jobs, pretty decent incentive. Having undesirable jobs doesn't make Communism collapse.
Having undesirable jobs doesn’t make Communism collapse.
True, but it does show that the OP is just bullshit propaganda.
They didnt need to make their comment to show that lmao, Its very clearly Marxist Propaganda, the best kind of Propaganda.
The solution capitalism gives us is that those jobs pay less. Any able-bodied person can clean toilets, so supply and demand results in little pay for cleaning toilets. However, those same people deserve a basic human life with food, shelter, and companionship, yet they are easily priced out of this. The "incentive" you speak of is the threat of starvation.
Communism actually recognizes this. Everyone pitches in to get the basic, necessary work done. This tends to be a lot less than generally expected. Most people today are not doing work that is necessary at all.
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A reminder - or possibly just some information - because I see this misconception so often. You can have money in communist or anarchist societies. You can reward shitty jobs, or even all jobs with money to be used for luxuries! This does not go against the principles of these social systems, despite what people often imagine. You may not have individuals racking up huge amounts of assets in the form of business empires, but you as an individual can still, idk, do work and use the output of that work to buy beer or whatever.
That is not to say that everyone will agree that these societies should have that... But just consider this before you make the "what about the sewage workers" argument.
I mean if you redefine communism, sure. But a communist society as described by Marx is moneyless, classless and with not central government. Because if all your needs are met and resources shared amongst the commune, what purpose would money serve?
People redefine capitalism every time it suits the rich folk, why can't we redefine communism too?
Communism is by definition moneyless
But yes anarchy is less prescriptive
Personally though I'm sceptical that money can be without hierarchy, or that the distinction between necessities and luxuries is all that meaningful, since it's all very relative
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It's funny how that imaginary Chad Stalin quote implies that you can't do any of that stuff under capitalism, or that capitalism requires any person to be limited to "one sphere of activity." In the USA we do have the freedom to choose to do any or all of that, and our only limitations towards doing them all are time and resources.
Lots of people have to work 40+ hours just to survive, that doesn't leave much energy to do things other than your paid job. And you can't just switch jobs willy nilly, pretty soon nobody would hire you anymore if your cv is full of jobs you've only held for a few weeks or months
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You have the freedom, if you have money. Otherwise you don't. You just have the freedom to be homeless and starve
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Right limited time and resources. You get more time and resources by earning more, quicker. You typically do that by becoming more skilled. You do THAT by... Specializing in one sphere of activity.
You absolutely can do whatever you want in a capitalist society, but let's not pretend there's no incentive to stick in one lane and specialize.
That's just kind of how labor intrinsically works though. It's not a capitalist thing.
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leftist meme
leftist meme
how dare you call uncle charlie a lefty? he's a commie for people's sake!
Cool. I'll fly a plane in the morning, perform open heart surgery in the afternoon and do economic forecasting in the evening.
Don't need much to do economic forecast
Yeah, but doing it well is pretty difficult. You can also just cut some guy open and hope for the best.
Those are just hobbies.
Can you walk into a l law office and be a lawyer one day, then a scientist the next?
(note: no, sovereign citizens, you are not either of these things despite what YouTube tells you)
Who the fuck would need a lawyer?
Even a communist utopia needs to have laws
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Oh yeah lemme just rear cattle. Not like it's a job that requires specific skill to be good at. Also, who's gonna make the equipment to do those things?
That's such a good encapsulation lol
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Rearing cattle in the evening eh?
That's no way to talk about yer partner if you ask me
The fundamental issue I have with anyone who doesn't understand communism is the massive authoritarian government it takes to kill the millions of civilians. Wait was that not apart of the books? Weird how it keeps happening then
The fundamental issue I have with anyone who doesn't understand capitalism is that it is still directly resulting in mass poverty, starvation, wars for resource robbery, ignored climate crisis but somehow the grand promises of everyone being able to become rich beyond their needs or plausible desires is dangled in front of their eyes while they they are shoved all of the above problems plus pettiest sugar grain up their asses.
Given how such people can't even wait 5 minutes in a line or traffic with the physical workings of the efficient and beneficial systems being very apparent, it is not weird how it keeps perpetuating.
Ah yes, I shit talk communism, that MUST mean I simp for capitalism
Because there are only two possibilities here for some reason.
Why the narrow view of reality?
People live in an artificial binary where they believe communism and capitalism are the only two economic systems in the entire world.
I'll be bold and say it outright: communism is a fundamentally broken idea and sucks balls, and so is capitalism, but both in similar-yet-different ways.
Communism is faulty economics and fails to differentiate between man-made capital and god-given land and natural resources, grouping both as "the means of production". The problem with this is land and capital have very different properties. Where land (and natural resources) cannot be created and are zero-sum, capital must be created and is not zero-sum. Communism blatantly ignores this and has a zero-sum view on capital, meaning it suggests policies that fail to effectively produce new capital, and thus fail to effectively produce new wealth and prosperity. Further, when the state takes monopolistic control over land and capital (in addition to its existing monopoly on violence), it concentrates far too much power, which is why communist countries keep on becoming brutal dictatorships.
Capitalism, on the other hand, also fails to differentiate between land and capital, but in a different way. Instead of socializing both, it privatizes both, allowing massive rent-seeking and exploitation as a result of monopolization of land and natural resources. It also often willfully ignores that negative externalities and other market failures actually make society, on the net, poorer and less prosperous. Further, this concentration of wealth into the rent-seeking, monopolist class grants them more political power to make it even easier to rent-seek, further concentrating their own power and wealth.
What I want instead is a Georgist system that correctly identifies this distinction between land and capital, and then uses economically proven policies that respect the inherent differences between land and capital.
Hot damn someone with a reasonable and intelligent take, thank you
Capitalism v. communism is certainly a false dilemma. There are other alternatives such as Georgism as you noted. I would go further and advocate a Georgist economic democracy where all firms are structured as worker coops. Similar to the problem you identify with capitalism in that it fails to treat land and capital differently, the mainstream of Georgist thought fails to differentiate labor from capital in an important respect. Labor can't factually be transferred unlike capital @196
I agree that I think worker coops elegantly solve certain problems (notably the principal-agent problem), but they also have certain drawbacks. Notably, they have more difficulty raising funds, they tend to be more risk-averse, they tend to be more growth-averse (people don't like to dilute their own stake within the company with more people, but this means they don't typically scale as easily or quickly to benefit economies of scale), and they tend to pay worse than hierarchical companies (counterintuitive as that may seem at first if the whole goal of market socialism is to have workers get more of their value back).
So is the solution to just throw our hands up and say, "Screw it, nothing we can do but let hierarchical organizations win"? Not quite. We still do see plenty of successful coops, notably in the form of credit unions. We also have unions and syndicalist solutions. We still have minimum wages (which are supported by most economists, as it turns out you can raise minimum wages a certain amount without raising unemployment because there's often a non-zero amount of monopsony power in the labor market).
Further, I do think a Georgist system would empower labor much more than now. Without a housing crisis (thanks to LVT and YIMBYism), with a citizen's dividend, with quality public education (education has positive externalities and thus deserves a Pigouvian subsidy), with more jobs (thanks to more economic growth and less rent-seeking), and with public works projects (essentially Pigouvian subsidies for things like environmental cleanup), I think labor would have much more bargaining power with employers.
For instance, the professional class right now gets good pay and generally good quality of life , despite rarely having unions or worker coops, precisely because they have high negotiating power with prospective employers.
My inclination is to strive for a more Georgist system, encourage unions, use minimum wages and government spending technocratically, and then see if more is yet needed.
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I am making my own blunder there and referring to the idea of the "communist state", I suppose closer to what we understand as socialism, rather than the idealistic communist society which, like you say, is moneyless (and stateless, which immediately separates it from say the USSR or whatever).
Yeah, but that’s the problem. Communism sort of relies on that communist state transition period. Or at least, that’s where every single communist state has turned into a dictatorship. The party-in-the-meantime never gives up their power “after a communist utopia sprouts.” That’s really the main leftist communism critique.
Socialists, communists, anarchists all have very similar ideas of a socialist utopia. But it’s how we get there where we all differ. Anarchism is communism minus the ruling party while relying on people to be good, self sustain, and fight back together when under attack. It would be great if we could have some left unity, but….well, ask the FAI how that went.
Oh ok
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