this post was submitted on 14 Sep 2024
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Showerthoughts

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A "Showerthought" is a simple term used to describe the thoughts that pop into your head while you're doing everyday things like taking a shower, driving, or just daydreaming. The best ones are thoughts that many people can relate to and they find something funny or interesting in regular stuff.

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[–] undergroundoverground 30 points 2 days ago (2 children)

If only there was some kind of proven road map where countries who has been dominated by their ruling elite using the two party trick went on to form a kind of labour movement that forced a third choice on the ruling class....

[–] eskimofry 9 points 2 days ago

Actually most people are not aware. So its better to spell it out.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 6 points 2 days ago (8 children)

glances at the current state of the UK Labour party

It's been known to work for a bit, but its also been known to collapse right back into the old two-party dichotomy. I think the hysteria around third parties baked into every election since the Bush Era SCOTUS-powered election theft in Florida is overblown, particularly when so much of the electorate lives in one-party dominant states. But I've also noticed successful outsider parties - the German Greens, France's En March, the UK Liberal Dems - seem to embrace Corporationism as quickly as any of their German Christian Democrat / French Socialist / UK Tory peers.

And then there's always this specter of fascism floating on the edge of the political establishment. Your Alternative for Germany, your National Front, and your UKIP create this existential crisis for liberal voters, such that they're persistently terrorized into voting the "safe" centrist candidates in while ostracizing any candidate actually running on the things they say they want.

The Ruling Elite have the effective roadmap to keep the proles in line. Continuously finance a paper tiger on the right-flank of the election cycle. Make immigration a boogeyman issue that mobilizes the reactionaries within the state to turn out in droves. Then dangle a weak liberal as a release valve - a Starmer or Biden or Macron or Olaf Schultz - that nobody particularly likes, but the liberal-leaning base are told is "electable" because they can win the support of the conservative national media.

People are bombarded with this false choice - weak liberal or strongman conservative - decade after decade, all the way around the edge of the Atlantic, until the institutions these weak liberals are supposed to support are falling apart and the strongman conservatives can easily take over.

Its a doomed system.

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[–] rayquetzalcoatl 4 points 1 day ago

American shower thoughts

[–] LustyArgonianMana 16 points 2 days ago

We need to demand approval choice voting. Every time we hear anything about third parties in this country, we need to use it as a launch pad to tall about approval choice voting

[–] [email protected] 39 points 3 days ago (4 children)

You'd need to grow the third party / greens by having them become a viable party in local elections and state elections first. The greens have failed to do that. Which means they have no chance except to spoil the election.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Big money donors will never allow green candidates to get into significant office. Money runs politics and billionaires own entire state houses these days

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

True. I think about it now as a kind of physics problem. You have political energy measured in dollars on each side. Volunteers to help bring the political message across for free can be converted into dollars too. There are a lot of people concerned or outright scared out of their minds about environmental concerns like climate change. One sight has multiple orders of magnitude more political energy to spend. For example on counter measures, or boosting extreme vegan voices to cause disruption, advertising or media stories or think tanks or lobbyists. And the "technology" to manage this political energy is rapidly advancing too. So no amount of "this is the right / wrong choice" argument is going to change anything. There is only power.

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[–] mlg 20 points 2 days ago (13 children)

768 votes wth is wrong with Americans bruh

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Tehreek-e-Insaf

If you can create a successful grassroots political party in an environment where your party members and constituents are constantly attacked, murdered, bombed, jailed, tortured, votes faked, votes destroyed, and vote miscounts, you can definitely pull it off in the USA.

It took Pakistan only 20 years to cause a collapse of their corrupt 2 party system and challenge the military dictatorship. People never believed PTI would mount any sort of challenge, but they did by building a solid populist movement, despite facing all of the above.

The "you must vote the lesser evil" is a fallacy that both parties in the USA perpetuate in an attempt to convince you to believe 3rd party voting is a waste of time.

You can't just sit back and complain about the rigged system like "but muh first past the poll voting" as if either Democrats or Republicans will change the system in any way to make it easier for their rivals.

This is exactly why I dislike the Democratic party in particular so much. They are a corporate monolith that pretends to care about your leftist demands by handing out pennies worth of change to get your vote, then the second they refuse to actually significantly change something you demand, they have the audacity to blame you, the voter, for not sucking up to their shitty policies when they inevitably lose the election.

Current case in point: "There is no genocide in Gaza, and we believe we can win without our constituents because our opponent is a mentally insane baby ".

Shittiest take on this community by far.

[–] TankovayaDiviziya 7 points 2 days ago

Shittiest take on this community by far.

It's an myriad of reasons from what I can tell. Americans are conditioned to think along the status quo lines even if there is certain degree of freedom of thought. The American corporate media carves the political landscape to intentionally but subtly influence folks to pick either only Democrats or Republicans.

Another reason is that, I suppose rugged invidualism won out in the American society for better mobilisation. As you rightly pointed out, there just isn't grassroots activism among American people (not counting civil and lgbt rights which are undoubtedly grassroots activism and successful ones at that). But this isn't what it used to be. Before and in the early 20th century, there have been other third political parties still gaining respectable number of votes, the last one being the Socialist Party led by Eugene Debbs. He won a respectable 1 million votes as a presidential candidate while campaigning from prison during World War I.

Not sure what happened why political grassroots activism that could counter either Democratic and Republican parties died out, but my guess is that the proliferation of mass media in the 20th century may have had a hand to convince people to stick with two parties, as well as heavy emphasis on individualistic values.

[–] SankaraStone 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

They have a first past the post parliamentary system, derived from the UK. The US has a separation of powers between its executive branch and its legislative branch.

The way to build third parties is by reforming the democratic system state by state to have a ranked choice system open non-partisan primary to select the top two final candidates followed by a general election between these two candidates for each election to elect a representative or president.

It helps mitigate the flaws of the ranked choice system to have it stop at the final two and let the voters choose between these final two choices. It helps get candidates that are at the center of voter opinion distribution.

This means the hard work of mobilizing together and working across partisan lines, recruiting the majority of Americans that are pro-democracy in each and every state.

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[–] roofuskit 52 points 3 days ago (45 children)

But but, building a real third party from the ground up in local elections and/or changing our voting system from first past the post takes a lot of time and real effort. That's a lot of hard work. It's a lot harder than just showing up to one election every 4 years and casting a vote that makes you feel like you're special and smarter than everyone else.

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[–] PugJesus 58 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (17 children)

No, no, THIS time protest-voting to allow fascism will work to usher in a real left-wing movement in this country, promise! /s

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[–] a9cx34udP4ZZ0 38 points 3 days ago (20 children)

"Why would I vote for a primary party candidate who supports ranked choice voting when I can just throw my vote away on a third-party candidate that will never be elected? I've got principles!"

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[–] jaggedrobotpubes 237 points 4 days ago (28 children)

Third parties are mathematically impossible until we ditch first past the post voting:

https://youtu.be/s7tWHJfhiyo

We need our vote to be a list, not a checkbox.

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[–] TehWorld 30 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (8 children)

I was a proud third party voter for a long time but changed my mind after watching CGPGrey’s video about first past the post. It’s not really ABOUT trying to change minds but FPTP voting rules really do mean that a two party system is bound to very basic human psychology.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 3 days ago (1 children)

It's not even psychology, it's just the optimal strategy.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 3 days ago (5 children)

LOL and how do you suppose we make third parties viable? Thoughts and prayers?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 days ago (12 children)

I'm not gonna answer that question. I don't have the perfect answer ready for you.

Instead I will tell you what happens when you vote third party in FPTP. Okay, you have a .nl TLD so I guess ssyou're either in a much better electoral situation or just picked it because it's cool, but I will use the example of the upcoming US presidential election.

Now, let's say the race is really even and it's over. Flipping just one of several key battleground states would've placed Harris in the lead, but unfortunately, Trump won. You look at the votes in your state: Trump won by under 600 votes. Nearly 100,000 people voted for a third party candidate that's actually to the left of Harris. They would've preferred Harris, but because they voted third party, they elected Trump.

If this sounds familiar, that's what happened in 2000. Al Gore could've won. Should've won. But 3rd party candidate Ralph Nader was further left of him and received a bunch of votes that needed to go to Gore. In Florida, he had nearly 100k votes, and the difference between Bush and Gore was literally triple digits. And it wasn't even the only state where Gore lost because of the Spoiler Effect

It's an inherent flaw of the FPTP system and yes, it sucks. It means a vote for a third party is a wasted vote.

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[–] zeppo 9 points 2 days ago (6 children)

Not by voting for people in elections they can’t win. Vote at the local and state level or in primaries for people who will enact voting reform.

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[–] chaogomu 9 points 2 days ago (4 children)

Changing the voting system so that third parties are actually possible.

You need a cardinal voting system, otherwise you'll fall prey to Durverger's Law and Arrow's Impossibility Theorem.

I favor STAR, it's the best system designed to date.

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 3 days ago (2 children)
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[–] Westdragon 34 points 3 days ago (11 children)

Want to build a viable third party for presidential elections? Start small at the city/county level and eventually you will have candidates at the state/federal level. Today's city council is tomorrow's senator/president. Does it really surprise anyone that a relatively unknown and unproven candidate outside of the two major parties doesn't get any traction in a federal election?

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 3 days ago (4 children)

You mean in the USA? I guess the more viable path is to campaign to fix their democracy from within the democratic party. And then make new parties.

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