this post was submitted on 14 Jun 2023
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I am exploring Lemmy right now and what I see is very worrying to me, but I also don't understand wth is going on with some instances here. I don't know if it's smart to post this, but here we go.

I am partial to Marxist and anarchist ideology, but lemmygrad looks completely unhinged to me. Is it a parody? Some content is fine and some of it is insane.

On the other hand, beehaw looked super inviting from the outside and I even applied to join them. Then, I looked closer and that instance's moderation looks totalitarian and rigid in the other way. (I understand why they blocked lemmygrad though...)

I'm seeing this impact other communities in different ways and there's some kind of witch hunt happening on both sides...

I want to interact with people that can respect each-other and that can hold open-minded discussions about any topics without devolving into some tribal war.

Edit: I realize my post is not a simple question... Let me clarify some thoughs:
-I do not mean beehaw is far-right. The just seem strict and that's their right.
-I worry profiles can "inherit" the bad reputation of instances they interacted with and get pre-emptively banned.
-People are used to reddit and tend to centralize. Is the "just switch community" really an option?
-English is far from my first language and I might've judged things too quickly/harshly so take my criticism with a grain of salt.

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[–] lp0101 61 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

Lemmygrad is full of unhinged tankies. I just automatically assume anyone posting there is a child, either physically or mentally.

Beehaw have their own rules, and that's fine. While not my cup of tea, I won't tell them how to run their instance. I respect those rules when I post to their communities. I particularly enjoy their technology and gaming communities.

Other instances are pretty alright. The vibe on lemmy.world is pretty great, which is why it's my home instance.

Edit: inb4 this comment also gets brigaded by tankies chomping at the bit to call me a "liberal"

[–] Chraccoon 13 points 2 years ago

I definitely agree on respecting how other instances moderate themselves and I'm happy I can choose what I interact with. It's just so new and it's hard to find out what the vibes are. I hope I chose well with this one.

[–] KermitLeFrog 11 points 2 years ago (2 children)

This comment is basically just reaffirming my choice to make world my home instance too, although I am probably gonna explore some of Beehaw's communities especially if they have more engagement. Any you'd recommend?

[–] Dee 3 points 2 years ago

Honestly all the beehaw communities are quite nice, so it depends on your interests but you can't go wrong with any of them imo.

[–] neblem 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Outside of agreeing to the rules (modlogs are open to see), knowing who they block, and having some trust in the instance admin, joining any instance is fine and you can follow almost any instance's communities.

[–] 314xel 3 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Also the hosting country of the instance, both from a speed perspective and a privacy perspective. At the moment, your data is in the hands of that host, with no way to actually delete it, and no way to port it to another instance.

Edit: also take into account the owner and support of the instance in regards to server power upgrades. Lemmy.world's owner for example has been great in dealing with the huge influx of users during the past week.

[–] IncogCyberspaceUser 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Edit: looks like lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works is also affected, due to open sign up policies. https://lemmy.world/post/145337
I get there is issues between beehaw and lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.
But what does this have to do with lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works? As mentioned here: https://kbin.social/m/[email protected]/t/24341/How-the-beehaw-defederation-affects-us

[–] Chraccoon 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I've browsed some of beehaw's communities last night and there was a lot of terrible posts from outside being made there.
My guess is they fear defederated users from bad instances making throwaway accounts on lemmy.world to troll them from here and circumvent moderation.
I understand why they did that, but it seems very extreme and shows shortcomings in lemmy's moderation tools.
We are now tainted by the unhinged.
I don't know how I feel about this since there's no real good answer...
Maybe lemmy.world should limit sign-ups, but that could be seen as being coerced by beehaw and give them political power they don't deserve.
Something better would be to have community-level moderation tools and also tools for instances to limit interaction instead of outright nuking it. Lemmy needs more development quickly or it may suffocate.

[–] DarraignTheSane 30 points 2 years ago (2 children)

lemmygrad looks completely unhinged to me
...
[Beehaw's] moderation looks totalitarian and rigid

Yes. They're not on the opposite sides politically, but are on opposite ends of the spectrum for tolerating wack-a-do nonsense.

[–] Chraccoon 9 points 2 years ago

Yeah, not opposite politically. You described it better.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

and how exactly is beehaw totalitarian? ive been very explicit in my language while using beehaw since it was a tiny miny server. is it perfect? oh hell no ive got a lot to say but totalitarian?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago (1 children)

One indication is that they defederate several hundred instances, far more than any other Lemmy instance does, and some for no apparent reason and with nothing at all objectionable.

[–] whitehatbofh 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

Yeah, they just defederated lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works.

Although, they did give reasons. Trying to boil down their wall of text, those reasons am to boil down to their perceived difficulty in keeping heehaw a safe space when those other two Ibarra have own registration policies.

[–] Chronokill 4 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm a total noob when it comes to this federation stuff, but what does this mean for me, an account-holder of a 3rd party instance (lemmy.world) but likes to subscribe to a lot of the beehaw communities. Will they no longer show up to me? Do I have to jump through additional hoops (I'm really trying to not have to juggle multiple accounts across instances) if I want all my info in one place?

[–] scorchingheat 4 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I had the exact same question and got some answers in this post.

The short story seems to be:

  • users in beehaw.org no longer see new posts and comments created by users of lemmy.world
  • users in lemmy.world no longer see new posts and comments by users in beehaw.org
  • existing posts and comments from beehaw.org (from before the defederation) are still accessible and interactable by lemmy.world users, however only other lemmy.world users will see those replies.
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[–] [email protected] 27 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I can share the perspective of why I joined beehaw instead of the other services.

I used to be on the side of free-speech maximalists, but after seeing communities crumble because of toxicity driving out people, I also came to see the same problems with social media that the beehaw folks see.

On anon/pseudo anon places, the social structure to correct anti-social behavior does not exist like in real life. So to create an environment that’s tolerable to the majority of people, you have to isolate and punish the bad actors.

I’m past the age where i want to be spending time on things and places where people are hateful and mean all the time.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 2 years ago (9 children)

Freedom of speech is never freedom of consequence. And if that consequence is that nobody wants to listen to you, well that's on you.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 2 years ago (2 children)

So we at rblind.com blocked lemmygrad pretty much right away, for the reasons stated above. But I'm starting to wonder if the future of Lemmy instances might not be organized around topics. I'm not sure that, if Lemmy takes off, moderating a "general interest" style instance is sustainable. I'm also not sure everyone centralizing onto one or two general instances is a good idea. Once we get out of alpha, the intent is for us to be an instance focused on posts and topics of interest to the blind community. We disabled community creation for that reason; I don't want someone signing up with us and creating the FunnyAnimalPictures community,, because as a blind person, I just don't want to be their admin, not because that content is bad in any way. Parcially sighted folks who want that content can federate with whatever instance has it, and I can trust those people to moderate and admin that community. Federation seems to be as useful for better distributing administration and moderation workloads as anything else. My real worry is that beehaw is too general and open. From the description, I don't really understand what it's for, or who should be there. At least I know the purpose of lemmygrad, and what kind of people I might find on it, making the "block" decision super easy.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

Beehaw is for some general communitys like technology, news and other big stuff. They didn't create anything specific. So it is only for these basic communitys and everything else is federated.

I think that it is for people that don't know where to create account - you start with these basic communitys everything else you can find throughout Feddiverse.

I hope that in future there will be some breaking of instances to smaller more specific instances.

[–] neblem 4 points 2 years ago

I'm so excited for the possibilities of the accessible custom interfaces and improvements to the platform your instance's users will likely create. I totally agree that we'll likely have more topical instances as things stabilize, there will be lots of alt accounts, and those local feeds will be fun!

[–] Darren 19 points 2 years ago

This is something that I've found really nice about the Fediverse. It seems like both instances don't really work for you; in that case, you can always find another that might fit your interests! Even if you have the ability to see the communities from each instance, you don't have to participate. Like another poster said, I've made lemmy.world my main instance because I enjoyed the rules and vibe stated there.

[–] NABDad 15 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Just replying to recommend the Lemmy.world instance. Seems like a nice place to me.

Obviously, you interact with communities from other instances, but it's like having a home in a friendly neighborhood. You can visit elsewhere, but you've got a friendly base to come back to.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

This is a great analogy. There are parts of my city I love visiting, but I'm glad to get back to my neighborhood at the end of the day.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 years ago (4 children)

Defederation might be a good thing, and I don't think we should assign a taboo to it.

What I believe, is it establishes a direct chain of responsibility. Instance owners are responsible for what thier users say and do on. This incentivises moderation, but unlike other systems, defederated instances don't cease to exist. In fact, they could thrive, and even mutually contribute to other instances. A new insurance could even preemptively defederate from instances they know won't gell well, allowing communities to build without facing threats of harassment.

I believe, it gives the opportunity for Lemmy users to create a diverse collection congruent communities. Not everything can, or should, be consolidated into one great house.

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[–] j4k3 12 points 2 years ago

Funny. I haven't even noticed as I am not subscribed to anywhere this is taking place. The only thing I've seen is Gaywallet's fork essay and a few crazy comments about the Lemmy dev's I'm an open communist info.

I'm no political buff and don't want to become one. I think most ideologies are oversimplified nonsense that does not encompass the needs of the true majority in any instance. They all require compromises that encompass parts of other opposing theories. However, a person committed to a community centric ideology sounds like the perfect fit as the developer of a federated social media platform.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago (4 children)

I'm also new here so I cannot really answer your question. But are you saying Beehaw leans far right? Because I thought they wanted to foster a very welcoming and supportive environment (even disabling downvotes) and I thought they even blocked some instances which are too right for them?

[–] Chraccoon 11 points 2 years ago (1 children)

nonono, It's not that. I haven't lurked there for very long, but it seemed that they were trigger-happy on bans from what I gathered. I don't have examples at the moment and the modlog feature doesn't seem to work well..

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Ah got it, ok sorry I misunderstood you. But yes, this sounds believable. As I understand they have a very clear vision what is wrong with social media and believe that only very strict moderation can fix these problems. If this is right or wrong I cannot really say...

[–] Chraccoon 8 points 2 years ago (2 children)

It definitely is an interesting and there might be some merit to it. I'm just worried. Let's say I post in lemmygrad for any reason and then comment something unrelated and neutral on a beehaw post. Will I be silenced because of that first instance's bad reputation? Maybe I'm thinking too much.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 years ago

Good question. But I guess only the beehaw admins know the answer to that. But from my understanding so far they would only silence you if you actively spread negativity - but I might be wrong.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 years ago

It doesn’t seem like they’ve been doing things like that at all.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

Beehaw doesn't lean far right at all. They blocked lemmygrad for being authoritarian (i.e. pro North Korea), not for being on the left.

From one of Beehaw's stickied posts: "We want to explicitly make a nice little corner of the internet where we can hide from racist, sexist, ableist, colonialist, homophobic, transphobic, and other forms of hateful speech."

[–] gorkette 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't agree with the removal of being able to downvote. Both up and downvoting serves a purpose. Would you support a community that only allowed downvotes?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 years ago

I also think downvotes have an important purpose, but I see how the downvote button can be easily abused.

[–] DarraignTheSane 4 points 2 years ago (3 children)

FWIW, I don't think there are any 'far right', or really any right-leaning Lemmy servers at this point. None that I've seen, at least.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 years ago

there is one. backchodi. Its a hindu nationalist (and hence islamaphobic, racist, casteist, queerphobic instance)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 years ago

You can find some in beehaw’s list of blocked instances.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)
[–] DarraignTheSane 6 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah, hopefully it stays that way, but with popularity it's likely we'll get all types. I suppose some asshole will come along and setup "christo.fascist.world" or something at some point.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Yeah you're probably right. But the good thing is with lemmy the "community" can decide what is acceptable behaviour and what not. If the admin of an instance finds another instance abusive they can just defederate it. And if the users of this instance don't like that the other one got de-federated they can just switch. (or at least that's my basic understanding so far...)

[–] DarraignTheSane 2 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

True enough, but that doesn't stop people like that from having a place to congregate, and then nothing else is stopping them from creating logins on different servers and brigading other communities from there. There's no way around that though with the Fediverse and Lemmy being designed how it is.

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