this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2023

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TIL that the judge in the Carroll rape case clarified that Trump did rape Jean Carroll (www.washingtonpost.com)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by [email protected] to c/til

46 comments fedilink hide all child comments

All the news headlines and verdict said sexual abuse, which was kind of vague, but I just found out today that the judge clarified that this was a matter of legal definition and by the verdict of the trial and the case, trump has been found guilty of penetrative rape.

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[–] fubo 214 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

"Found guilty" is inaccurate, since he was not charged with it as a crime. Rather, it was a finding of fact in a civil case. The standards of evidence are different, and a criminal prosecution would still have to prove the charge to a higher standard. But for purposes of civil liability, yeah, he did it.

[–] [email protected] 48 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I thought about that, but since guilty isn't only a legal term and commonly implies responsibility for wrongdoing in general and the judge is clarifying trump is responsible for raping carroll regardless of the legal term used, naming his guilt is appropriate and perfectly accurate.

[–] fubo 75 points 1 year ago (6 children)

He is guilty in the ordinary sense. But "found guilty" is technical vocabulary for criminal courts.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Why is he not in jail then? Crimes like these shouldn't be possible to change with a fine or whatever.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Because, again, he wasn't convicted in criminal court. And again, there is a different burden of proof in civil cases (preponderance of evidence vs. "Beyond a reasonable doubt."). There are many reasons why a case may be brought in civil court and not criminal.

One famous example is OJ Simpson. Ruled not guilty of murder in criminal court, but lost in civil court and had to pay Ron Goldman's family a fuck ton of money, as well as giving up any profits he may have made, or ever will make, based on the murders (that ridiculous book, etc).

Not enough evidence to convince a jury in a criminal trial, but more than enough for civil.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Do you guys use ‘Preponderance of Evidence’ as the standard of proof for civil cases in the US? In Australia we use ‘On the Balance of Probabilities’. I wonder if there’s a technical difference there.

(Tiny pedantic note but the Burden of Proof is about who has to produce the evidence, not the level of evidence required to make a finding - that’s the Standard of Proof)

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Yes we go by preponderance of evidence.

Essentially it's 'whoever you Believe more' in civil cases, which is significantly lower than 'beyond a reasonable doubt ' we use for criminal trials.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

There is also the notion that is not all or nothing depending on the proof for and against a defendant. You can ask for X amount, but only get X-Y because the proof against the defendant weren't enough to grant all the X amount.

In criminal court, you are either guilty or not and then, if you are guilty, you can have factors that reduces or lengthen the sentence.

[–] I_Fart_Glitter 5 points 1 year ago

See also Martin Luther King Jr's family bringing a preponderance of evidence to a civil trial alleging the FBI and CIA were behind the assassination and winning $100 and a footnote in history books.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I haven't been following this tbh since I'm not American but I did read another comment that said something about the statute of limitations so maybe criminal charges can't be brought due to that weird part of the law where rape gets an expiry date.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago

Correct, the state passed a law allowing those cases where statue of limitations have been passed for criminal trails to still sue their attacker in civil court.

It's been suggested this was passed specifically to target Trump, but a good number of sexual assaults never go reported and I believe a few hundred cases have come from this law.

It has since expired, it was only valid for one year.

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[–] KneeTitts 17 points 1 year ago

The very fact that she said she could not tell if he used a finger or his penis kinda proves shes not lying... if she was set out to make money off him by lying Im pretty sure part of that lie would be "yeah his penus was def inside me bro"

[–] badbytes 21 points 1 year ago

Good ole Commander and Creep

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lock him up! Lock him up! Lock him up! tRump for prison 2023!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

And beyond

[–] masquenox 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sooo... he's a rapist - as if we needed any confirmation of that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The party line was that he technically wasn't accused of rape, and while I would have thought he was a rapist anyway, without the judge explicitly and publicly stating that Trump is a rapist， I would have never known from reading the articles about the trial.