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cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/26226188
cross-posted from: https://lemy.lol/post/39626252
We have to agree where we ARE before we stand a chance to agree about what we do from here.
The problem isn't that they're bad at spotting a liar, it's what they were lied to about.
It's the transphobic, anti working class, white supremacist ideologies that allowed them to be duped in the first place. Get rid of that and we can talk.
Right wingers fucking around: "Yeah let's deport all the ILLEGALS, lower our egg prices, and make the government fascist! MAGA!"
Right Wingers finding out: "Boohoo my benefits are cut, Canada boos at our National Anthem, and I have to sell my left kidney to buy groceries!"
Fuck these people. Conservatives were drawn in to Trump because of his hateful rhetoric and they only changed their minds when they were personally affected. They'll vote with a hard R the next election cycle anyway and don't deserve our sympathy. They were around and even voted for Trump's first administration and wanted more of his hate.
Your strategy will continue to isolate you
Thank you. This is what is needed.
Edit: obviously many people are not worth the effort but not even trying is not going to help. Don't associate with Nazis, period. Not everyone who causes harm is a Nazi, however.
Also not endorsing the language 100%, however I do think this is a good start.
This sounds reasonable, but the logical conclusion of that is that the only people that associate with Nazis are other Nazis, or future Nazis (who may not realise it yet). This normalises nazism in a growing group of people because they don't have any moderate voices highlighting their more extreme thoughts and pulling them back towards normality.
Your argument also make the false assumption that Nazis are irredeemable. I'm sure some of them are. But I'm equally sure that at least some of them aren't.
I am not responsible for spending time around violent, hateful people in order to bring them into the fold and change their minds and ultimately their actions. My comment is about talking to people in your life already, who are more likely to actually make changes, I.e. picking your battles, in order to give chances to the folks such as those who are alienated but unsure.
Your argument also make the false assumption that Nazis are irredeemable. I'm sure some of them are. But I'm equally sure that at least some of them aren't.
Thats not an assumption that I make although I could see how you would think I was saying that. In my mind people are people and probably most of them could make changes, but the work required to do so becomes greater over time and it does not fall on marginalized folks, including me, to do that work. But yes I don't associate with Nazis. If you do something different that isn't enabling and validating them and their beliefs and actions I would love to know what it is.
Trump openly stated he would do what he's doing now. His campaign published project 2025. It wasn't a conspiracy. They did it out in the open while crowing about doing it. There's really no excuse for not listening when he told you his plans.
You either made a mistake because you were purposely uninformed or you agreed with what he wanted to do until it started affecting you. Either way you were wrong and need to accept and admit that before serious work can be done. Otherwise it'll just happen again when the next demagogue rears their ugly head.
Working class is working class, red or blue.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
Don't underestimate the effect that propeganda ran by our very own government has on its citizenry.
Working class is working class, red or blue.
True but not relevant to what I said. Everyone of us needs to learn from our mistakes, but in order to do that we have to admit we made them.
Dem leadership is as pro-corporate as the current admin.
False, I doubt the Dems would have dismantled the government at the behest of the world's richest man (along with giving him access to all of our tax and social security records) and also not relevant to what I said.
Don't underestimate the effect that propeganda[sic] ran by our very own government has on its citizenry.
Accurate, America is one of the most heavily propagandized populations in history, but not relevant because all they had to do was listen to the words of Trump's actual campaign speeches or read his actual campaign literature to know what he was planning to do. He didn't hide his intentions, people just thought he wasn't serious about them.
Frankly, it's most important they admit to themselves that they were lied to.
Even more important that someone they liked and someone they thought liked them lied to them.
Has anyone sent it to their MAGA friend and the person responded "yep, you were right"?
I understand this has good intentions, which I support, but I think this still needs to be changed. I don't care them admitting me they were wrong or were lied to, but I do want them to admit it to themselves, get past the divide and work together to fix what we have now.
I don't need anyone to admit anything. I see maga voters getting on board, so apparently they already admitted to themselves they were too tired and stretched too thin, so were duped. It's not like our educational institutions do anything to help that, especially in red states. We have consistently defunded education since Nixon.
All I need is their motivation to work together. We can work out ideological differences with patience and fortitude, forgiveness and understanding, as we do that
I'm not the one that was betrayed. It's the Constitution, our fore fathers, and the millions of men and women that died for our freedom that were betrayed. None of them are here so all you can do is find forgiveness from yourself. But are you going to stand by the train tracks as an endless row of people are slaughtered or are you going to say something?
I've been saying it. And working for better. Good we're working together.
Actions speak louder than words. I trust the MAGA voter holding a sign that says "Fuck Trump" over someone that can't be bothered to walk away from their TV or video games.
Blame anyone but yourself. That's the American way!
Remove all overlay words and start with... LET'S TAKE AMERICA BACK TOGETHER!
First we have to agree with who we are taking it back FROM.
The ones who have bought the lies think it's the immigrants. The ones who know better realize it's the rich.
We're in for the fight of our lives trying to rescue America, and I am willing to accept almost anyone as an ally, but the barebones minimum is that people who voted for Trump FUCKING DO HAVE TO FUCKING ADMIT THEY WERE FUCKING WRONG.
Yaup.
These people have cheered on the most heinous shit, you can't reconcile with that. The fuck?
"You don't have to admit you were wrong"
🤣
What an opener to appeal for unity, Jesus fucking Christ.
The American Left and Right are indistinguishable people apart from political views.
Imagine what y'all could achieve if the circlerks were united as one big fucking circlejerk. That's what Putin is blocking because GAWD DAMN was it effective in the last century.
But if unity can't be started until someone admits something they don't believe... Cool. Enjoy the dying years of your country, furled by stubbornness above all else.
I reiterate; The American Left and Right are indistinguishable people. Shouldn't that mean something for common ground sake? Shake fucking hands ffs
You're not wrong, but "Our division is caused by those evil foreigners" isn't it.
We have our own oligarchs, whom are much more influential than any foreign entity and have just as much interest in keeping the working class divided and confused. One of them is the literal president.
Country boys will be hot again once they burn those Trump flags.
Wait wait wait. So the people who support treating humans like they are disposable trash undeserving of rights if they dare stray from the very narrowly defined normative values are now okay because they changed sides? Fuck that. They still support violence against others and hate against the unknown. They are still undeserving of acceptance.
Supporting Nazis will make us all Nazis.
There's always these brainlet comments under this repost. Um, would you rather they stay Nazis so you can pretend to feel morally superior while not doing anything about it?
Here's the thing. Would I trust any of them to have my back? Nope. Not a single one. So, yeah, they want to change? Good for them, they are welcome to join the right side of history. I'm not ever going to trust them, though. I won't ever believe that they'll vote for the best interests of the species. They can live out their lives trying to be a better person and doing the right thing. That makes them an average human. If the suffering they cause comes out to a net zero by the end, then they get to have a grave I won't piss on. However, if the only way they can be a good person is to blame someone else for lying to them, instead of assuming any personal responsibility, I don't have much faith they are gonna break even.
For many, the answer is "yes", because it's perfectly easy and incredibly comfortable. Why sacrifice the immediate gratification of what they're doing now with literally anything else.
You chose to listen to the ones who lied, and ignored the ones who warned
Who the hell is going to be convinced by a patronizing image like this?
They lied to themselves.
A popular older phrase...
"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it."
If step one is to admit that they've been lied to, then step two has to have them admit that they were wrong in how they voted. Otherwise we'll go through this again, again, and again.
But that'll be a hard sell, as nobody likes to admit that they've been conned/taken advantage of. Thats human nature.
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Democrats can admit that Kamala is a shit candidate and maga can admit Trump is a shit president… it’s not that hard actually…
We’ve never said anything different. You’re just now realizing this.
There's no small number of people on the left who'd rather say "I told you so" than "I look forward to working with you."
We did tell them so. For years. With graphs and charts and video evidence and circles and arrows pointing to the relevant parts.
We were constantly insulted and ignored for it.
Sure let’s work together. We’ll pretend it never happened.