this post was submitted on 01 Mar 2025

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Diplomacy dies on live TV as Trump and Vance gang up to bully Ukraine leader (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 1 day ago by just_another_person to c/politics

39 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Posting to show that not only US media is seeing it this way. It was a disgrace.

top 39 comments

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[–] Nightwingdragon 125 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

This was an ambush. Straight up ambush. This was designed from the beginning. It was literally the geopolitical equivalent of a professional wrestling "Heel turn". The whole point of this was literally for Trump to make Zelensky come to the White House, make Zelensky grovel at Trump's feet for assistance, and expect him to thank them for the opportunity to grovel.

They even got Marjorie Trailer-Park Greene's boyfriend in on the act as he was one of the only American press members allowed in the room and took a cheap shot at him about not wearing a suit. Fucking pathetic waste of human flesh trying to suck up to Trump by kicking a man while he's down and unable to defend himself.

Vance admitted during the exchange that they were pissed because Zelensky stumped for Harris one time. Trump admitted after he kicked Zelensky out that it was because he didn't want Zelensky saying bad things about Putin. And he also said it was going to make for great television. The whole thing was a setup. I don't even think Trump cared about the mineral rights. That was just bait. It was meant to get Zelensky on TV and humiliate him as revenge for not engaging in political corruption with Trump in 2020 and for stumping for Harris, while also setting up a narrative to support the US fully pulling support from Ukraine, which I expect to be announced probably within the next 48 hours.

[–] fluxion 19 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

The setup was that this deal gave the US veto power over how Ukraine spent it's mineral resources, which could be used to blackmail them in all sorts of ways, including forcing ceasefire and land cessation and any number of shady Trump-backed deals. Zelensky made clear this would only be considered if it coincided with some prospect of security guarantees, which Trump refused to even hint at.

This entire meeting was a setup to bully him into signing it regardless and Zelensky didn't bite so they went off on him to blame him for things falling apart.

Nothing was lost herr except a lot of people's time and the dignity of the US. Trump was never gonna help Ukraine secure actual lasting peace, he serves Russia

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

Yours is the only credible explanation I've seen so far

Here's something I thought of while watching: Who's backing up Zelenskiy and giving him the courage to walk away like he did?

Somewhat related: Years ago I read a blog post about "who's really in charge". Basically it's the MIC. At what point does the MIC flex and assert its interests in continuing the conflict in Ukraine?

Trump's hands were quickly tied in 2017, just as Obama found himself in 2009, by the bureaucracy, congressional gridlock, and the demands of the donor class. It's the overarching theme of a Chapo miniseries, Hell of Presidents: US executives have little ability to make sweeping changes even when they have a mandate.

So now he's there and trying to beat them all by firing everyone. Trump's only personal goals seem to be ending Ukraine conflict and pretending to be tough on immigration. He hires loyalist sycophants and lets them pursue their own agendas (Christianists, Nazis, RFK medical quackery, etc) because they agree to stay out of his way on his pet issues.

The lawless takeover by Musk has kept me awake at night. These people are just doing whatever they want and daring anybody to stop them.

What I saw in this bizarre piece of diplomacy theatre was a huge crack in the facade. Nobody conducts serious diplomacy this way. This is desperation by Trump to gain some leverage through public opinion and put Zelenskiy on the spot. Trump's desired course of action with Ukraine threatens the legitimacy and mission of the postwar empire (regardless of what you or I think about US imperialism and NATO) and a lot of folks are deeply invested in that arrangement

This is all just ideas floating around in my head that seem somehow related. I'm sure someone else can make sense of it, or tell me why I'm way off base

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Sorry for my ignorance, what’s/who’s the MIC?

[–] MegaUltraChicken 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Military Industrial Complex

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

Ahh gotcha

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

According to details leaking to the press, Zelenskyy didn’t walk but was thrown out.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 day ago (1 children)

My take on this is that Trump promised that he would end the war quickly. Turns out it's not that easy to do so that it pleases Putin and make him rich. Then escalates the conversation into a shouting match so that he can deflect the blame on Zelenksy and save face.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 day ago

It’s also revenge for Zelenskyy not complying with Trumps extortion to dig up dirt on Hunter Biden, which led to Trumps first impeachment. He hates Zelenskyy for that.

[–] DaddleDew 77 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Anyone else noticed a clear link between this and what happened not too long ago with Macron exposing him as the liar that he is in front of everyone by very tactfully and diplomatically fact checking him?

It really looks like Trump was terrified to get a repeat of that with Zelenskyi so he brought Vance along for backup and then whenever Zelenskyi was about to make a point they'd just speak over him, repeating their own bullshit narrative over and over again.

It's pathetic.

[–] MuskyMelon 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Did you just call JV Vance Trump's stunt cock? Cause JV Vance totally was Trump's stunt cock!

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

He was his chicken wingman.

[–] 800XL 23 points 1 day ago

If he wasn't ruining the world you could almost feel sorry for an old man so insecure with himself and unable to come to any self-reflection despite how far along he is in his twilight years.

But it's Trump and he is an absolute moron and you just hope that slightly off-level piece of concrete where he walks finally comes for his hip, shattering it in a billion pieces and doing him in permanently.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 day ago

My thought, exactly. A petty revenge.

[–] [email protected] 77 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Vance is such a piece of shit. Fuck him.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I simply cannot understand how anyone can take him seriously. How do you see him go from calling Trump "America's Hitler" to being a sniveling suck-up to everything Trump says and does without realizing he has absolutely no spine? I mean, I don't know why I am surprised at this point, anyone who hasn't been put off by Trump in the past decade isn't going to care about a little thing like a moral backbone, and yet I still just find myself dumbfounded by the lows we somehow continue to sink towards.

[–] throbbing_banjo 24 points 1 day ago

It makes more sense when you realize he wasn't using "America's Hitler" as an insult.

[–] [email protected] 51 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (2 children)

I have had a low-key crush on Zelensky for about 15 years.

Nothing has ever made me respect the man more than him standing up to both Trump and Vance. This is a man worthy of praise for his fortitude and his dedication to his people.

I wish the United States could have a leader even a fraction as strong as Zelensky.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 day ago (1 children)

"I need ammunition, not a ride."

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 day ago

"We're not playing cards"

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 day ago

You and me both buddy :(

[–] [email protected] 57 points 1 day ago (1 children)

In France it was called an extraordinary meltdown:

"Earlier Friday, Trump cut the meeting short with Zelensky, said the Ukrainian leader is "not ready" for peace with Russia in an extraordinary meltdown in the Oval Office that threw question marks over chances for a truce"

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/united-states/article/2025/02/28/trump-and-zelensky-openly-clash-in-heated-white-house-exchange_6738686_133.html

In Germany it was a shouting match:

US President Donald Trump and Vice President JD Vance's conversation with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the Oval Office turned into a shouting match.

https://p.dw.com/p/4rE1i

If you look at European news sources, it's filled with representatives from various countries all saying variations of "holy shit, we really can't trust the US anymore".

[–] Nightwingdragon 23 points 1 day ago (2 children)

If you look at European news sources, it’s filled with representatives from various countries all saying variations of “holy shit, we really can’t trust the US anymore”.

The rest of the world can no longer expect the US to abide by word or deed for any more than two years. Any change in administration could mean rapid, unpredictable changes up to and including breaking treaties just because they feel like it.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 day ago

Yup. Canada already had a treaty with the US in NAFTA. But, in Trump's first term, it was pressured into abandoning that and signing a new treaty, the USMCA. The whole point of these treaties was to provide tariff-free access to US markets (and vice versa). Canada had to give up a lot to get that guarantee.

Now Trump is violating his own new USMCA treaty, who knows why. Most likely it's just a grudge against Trudeau. So, Canada gave up on certain rights to get the treaty, and now the treaty is being ignored by the guy who pushed it. The smart move on Canada's part would be to stop enforcing all the IP terms in the deal, which are all hugely favourable to Hollywood at the expense of Canada's domestic industries.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Yeah our government is so flippy floppy. It sucks. Our first goddamn president warned against a two party state

[–] AbidanYre 3 points 1 day ago

He warned against it but the structure they all put in place ensures it's what we get.

[–] [email protected] 50 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Trump looked like a bully with severe memory disorder and Vance looked nothing short of foolish. Both were completely outwitted.

Vance is a fish out of water, bereft of tact.

[–] notsoshaihulud 2 points 18 hours ago

vance does have an excuse: he was distracted by the couch

[–] [email protected] -2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Winston Churchill was a fucking racist asshole. Not sure he would shed a tear to see this racist clown act like a bully.

Edit: why was this downvoted?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 21 hours ago

Edit: why was this downvoted?

I'd assume less pro-Churchill sentiment, more "people don't read articles and are wondering why you brought up Churchill"