this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2025
24 points (100.0% liked)

3DPrinting

16247 readers
99 users here now

3DPrinting is a place where makers of all skill levels and walks of life can learn about and discuss 3D printing and development of 3D printed parts and devices.

The r/functionalprint community is now located at: or [email protected]

There are CAD communities available at: [email protected] or [email protected]

Rules

If you need an easy way to host pictures, https://catbox.moe may be an option. Be ethical about what you post and donate if you are able or use this a lot. It is just an individual hosting content, not a company. The image embedding syntax for Lemmy is ![](URL)

Moderation policy: Light, mostly invisible

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
j4k3
andypiper
henry_rowengartner
[email protected]
24
Recommendations for teenager's first printer. (self.3dprinting)
submitted 1 week ago by Machinist to c/3dprinting
25 comments fedilink hide all child comments
 

My son is about ready for his first printer. His school is running Cetus MK3 printers, he has a class using them, and his teacher has recommended this printer. He also has an educational seat of Fusion 360.

I'm proficient with Mastercam and hand written/modified G-code. I can help him with CAD no problem. Alignment, assembly, adjustment, and backlash are second nature for me. Have a little better than layman's understanding of printers. (Lusted over the Markforged printer that could do continuous carbon fiber.)

Eventually, will be building my own shop and hope my son might work with me. Hope to include printing, especially in metal.

I've seen some of the flap about Bambu and them closing up the software tool chain. I would like to avoid that sort of thing, for now, openness is better.

Top of my budget is around $500, with $200 probably being better.

Usable prints for tooling/spacers/repairs would be a bonus as would being able to print UV resistant plastic.

My goal for him is to get gud at modelling and get a feel for computer controlled movement. Another goal, harder to describe, is him finding the joy in mechanical tinkering and producing an idea made physical.

Thank you much! What do?

top 25 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] j4k3 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

::: spoiler If you get a cheap project printer, the kid is likely to spend a lot of time obsessing over printers and mods instead of projects.

Personally, I do not regret buying a Prusa MK3 even though it was more than I initially wanted to spend. I do not tinker with it, and I own it for life with no proprietary products or software required. I don't really care about upgrading it further. I have another little project printer I tinkered with a bunch, a Kingroon KP3S I got to test out klipper and decide if I wanted to build a Voron. I decided against because I can do enough with the MK3. I only have a little trouble with large ABS prints that have wall thickness variation constraints above the first couple of centimeters, and I can design around this with modularity.

If you have not tried or checked out FreeCAD, maybe do so. There are some challenges, but especially after the recent move to version 1.0, it is really nice to use. Fusion is just a long term subscription baiting scheme like bambu. I was around for Autodesk acquiring Eagle for EDA design, and vowed to never trust them with a bait scam again.

With my Prusa MK3, the software and printer just works. Joe has made concerning posts about anti open source sentiments and has started selling a new proprietary printer. So do your due diligence. If real ownership matters to you.

  • The entire 3d printing hobby was started by Adrian Bowyer and the RepRap project. This community is where Joseph Prusa started and got involved with supplying kits, parts, and where the MK* nomenclature comes from.
  • RepRap, Marlin, and Klipper are the main software used in most printers. Prusa uses a version of Marlin that is so modified it is not easy to reproduce using the configuration menu built into Marlin. This is the mechanism that was used to limit others from copying and undercutting Prusa which does continuous product production with full time employees and developers. This is very different than contract manufactured goods that only ever had a subcontracted developer work on a checklist of features and got paid on the contract. There will never be further development on contract manufactured goods produced by venture capital. Those products are incentivised to convince the stereotypical buyer to make a purchase and the product experience or even real ownership is irrelevant as is the reputation of the company itself. The only thing that matters is presentation to the majority of perspective buyers. This is why such companies focus on hardware specs instead of usefulness, community, and the while value stack.
  • If you really watch people that review printers that also actually design and print real stuff, you will likely see one of three patterns:

1.) they have several cheap printers and only one or two ever work.
2.) They are renting a bambu and likely shilling it.
3.) They passively mention using their Prusa or you see it in the background occasionally.

Seriously, I was not interested in Prusa's at first, but I followed people long enough before pulling the trigger that this pattern became obvious to me. It is far more expensive to have several printer projects for just one or two that work. With hardware garbage like mobile devices, all of your buying options are proprietary junk you cannot own. There is not a single device sold with a fully documented SOC/processor and modem chip, so your only choice is to rent a device and be manipulated. With 3d printing, the entire hobby is built on open source and therefore full end user autonomy and ownership. You have a choice of neo feudalism in a world where you do not have self deterministic autonomy by supporting proprietary products, but it is the exception to the standards of this community. The real open source community is generally located around Voron and similar projects with LDO selling supporting kits in much the same way that Prusa did originally with RepRap.

In the 21st century, it is smartest to look into the software you want to run and make purchases based on the hardware that these projects support best. If you use git to clone a repo on GitLab or elsewhere, you can use a package called gource to create a graphical representation of the project commits over time. This makes it easy to see where people are actively developing the software. You will likely also notice who the key developers are and what hardware they likely own based on where they make tweaks over time. Buying similar hardware will make for the best experience in my opinion.

Note: These are my opinions and only my personal opinions. I am not a mod in this capacity. I do my best to separate my opinion and bias from any mod actions. All are welcome to their own opinions, disagreement, and ethics, so long as they follow the Hippocratic aphorism 'first do no harm.'

[–] Machinist 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I check on FreeCAD every so often. The UI team should be forced to wear underwear made from pinecones until they fix that horror. Been doing CAD/CAM for more than two decades and FreeCAD is so unintuitive that it is unusable. Making a sketch or taking a measurement shouldn't require research. Recently tried it again and was unable to sketch angles for a brace I was making and needed dims on. Tried libreCAD (unfortunately 2d only) and was able to get my angles and lengths in 15min or so without any tutorials.

I hear and agree with what you're saying about open CAD software. However, I don't want my son trying to learn something that will just frustrate him. I wish OSS would catch up on CAD/CAM, I could ditch windows for good.

I watched the RepRap development back in the day, but eventually stopped following 3D printing closely. (Ended up with an Atlas Craftsman lathe with milling attachment that did all the home manufacturing I needed). Prussa and Voron are our top contenders for printers now. He's got a spreadsheet where he's comparing specs and I'm getting him to read the quick starts and manuals.

I'm going to dig into the Voron world and see if it's a reasonable project for me to support my son on. Not sure if it will be beyond his attention span. Otherwise it will be either a Prussa or maybe an Ender.

[–] j4k3 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I learned on FreeCAD and find it super intuitive now. There were frustrations at first, but I learned proper design with a thorough understanding of the TNI in all CAD as a result. Whatever a person starts on becomes a dependency especially with proprietary where user dependency is part of the design.

I have trouble with Blender because of the hotkey memorization required, but I can put down FreeCAD for months and return with no decay in skills. You're welcome to disagree. That is just my experience.

[–] Machinist 2 points 5 days ago

I started with Surfcam then MasterCAM, done some TEBIS, Fusion 360, AutoCAD, Eagle, Solidworks, and probably some others. I've even used inkscape and GIMP to cleanup and convert images into models for measurements and reverse engineering.

I have never had the trouble I have with FreeCAD. Have seen others complain about it as well.

[–] nycki 10 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I didn't see what c this was, and I was all set to say "Brother multifunction b/w laser printer", along with some colored copy paper and a long stapler that can reach the middle of a page. Everything you need to make some bitchin zines.

[–] Ensign_Crab 3 points 4 days ago

and a long stapler that can reach the middle of a page.

You should look up swivel staplers.

[–] ikidd 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

The Qidi machines will do CF filaments. There's been a few discussions on here about them.

https://qidi3d.com/

They're like an opensource version of the Bambu, and they're supposed to be putting out a multicolor box system soon. They're running Klipper.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 6 days ago (4 children)

BambuLab A1 mini without AMS it is $200. Toss in a hardened steel nozzle ($10 or so) and they are good for Carbon fiber materials.

Construction is pretty similar to the mentioned Cetus MK3 with the difference that BambuLab nailed the usability.

Hope to include printing, especially in metal.

Won't happen. This requires a debinding oven which is a pretty nasty process involving acids/bases, high pressure and temperature.

There are products like (BASF) Forward AM 316L which can be mailed in for the debinding and sintering process.

I’ve seen some of the flap about Bambu and them closing up the software tool chain. I would like to avoid that sort of thing, for now, openness is better.

You don't need to update as they are fine. with the current firmware, it is a non-issue.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

BambuLab is not to be trusted, they are anti-consumer and remove features after purchase

You don't need to update

If I have to careful to defend something I bought against the manufacturer remotely bricking it, then maybe it's not a product I'd recommend

[–] [email protected] 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I still use them and the only reason why I haven't updated it for a while: don't fix it if itsn't broken and nothing in the change logs read like I should update.

Even if you update: there is or will be (didn't follow it that closely) the debugging mode or how they call it. Not even sure if the A1 even has this DRM sofar or only the X1 series.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

I see nothing wrong with using it if you already have it.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 6 days ago

I've heard bambulab is beginning to do vendor lockin stuff

[–] Machinist 1 points 5 days ago

Metal printing and such would be in the context of building a CNC shop and him being proficient at modeling and such after playing with an FDM printer for a few years. We're talking a pro grade printer and sintering oven. If he has the interest, my son could handle printing and I would handle CNC. That's the dream. Requires tens of thousands of dollars. Baby steps first to see if he has the drive. Bambu is almost certainly not on the list unless I trip up on an incredible deal.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago

Only if he can get one with the current firmware. Depending on when he buys it might come with the new one - and a downgrade then is less then sure, according to a Bambu customer service statement towards me.

[–] IMALlama 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

IMO there are two things to consider. First: do you want FDM or SLA. You're trading resolution for build volume. If you're going to be making a lot of smaller things, SLA printers can offer more output since they print the same speed no matter how much of the build plate is occupied. Also consider the size of the things you'll print. In other words, how much build volume should you be looking for.

Second: are you seeking to tinker with the printer as a point of interest/engagement or are you simply looking for the printer to be a tool?

Off-the cuff list:

  • enders are cheap, but will likely result in you wanting to fiddle with the printer
  • Sovol are a bit more expensive, but should require less fiddling
  • Prusas have the reputation for set it up and forget it workhorses and are priced accordingly
  • Voron printers are 100% open source and there is no "official" storefront or kit. Plenty of companies offer a "BOM in a box" option. You'll build a printer from parts and it's a very solid base to just print with or to fiddle with. If you dig through my post history you'll see quite a few posts and comments about mine. Sourcing a Voron can be pricey though

... There are tons of other options too

[–] Machinist 4 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

FDM for now. Not planning on doing casting or proto mockups at this time.

Envelope is not a large concern, I assume it is similar to machining. You buy 1.5x the size you think you need and find out it should have been twice as big. The plan is to cut teeth on this printer before moving to something better/larger.

Mostly want to use the printer as a tool, not bothered if some tinkering is required. A Harbor Freight machine like a drill press or band saw is a 'kit'. Use it for a little bit, take it apart and fix the manufacturing shortcomings. I'm okay with a printer of similar build quality as long as the bones are good.

Voron sounds interesting, have seen the Enders as well, seem to be okay.

[–] AtHeartEngineer 3 points 5 days ago

SLA is also a mess

[–] IMALlama 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

On the envelope side: printing is more forgiving of having too small an envelope than machining. Since printing is all about adding material you can usually split the thing you want to print into pieces. I still think it's worth considering it the usual 200mm^3 will be enough since splitting parts can be annoying.

Harbor freight is a good comparison to an ender. They're fit for purpose, have some cheap parts, and are a decent platform to modify from. They will work out of the box most of the time, but you'll find yourself wanting to improve them.

Printer bones are very replaceable, especially if you have a functioning printer. I printed my Voron parts on my old i3 clone. I've now used my Voron to print future parts for itself before tearing some of it down and modifying things. People do the same with enders. There's even an Ender variant that rebuilds the Ender with a lot of Voron design ideas.

The only thing to be aware of is ultimate cost. Yes, you can turn the ender into most anything over time. It could wind up costing more money and time doing this though. Ultimately, the decision on how far to take the modifications will be yours and you can choose whether or not you want to have a frankenprinter. You'll also learn a lot along the way going this route, which takes me back to my original question: what are your goals for this project?

[–] Machinist 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I guess my ultimate goal is that he learn to model and begin building proficiency with CAD to prepare him for CAM. I also want him to start getting a feel for CNC movement and thinking in Cartesian. I think the best way to get there is by getting him engaged in printing. I'm not sure if tinkering will help or hinder this process. I know it helped for me, but I'm not sure if it will for him. I think it might. Still pondering the appropriate level of tinkering, but am leaning towards Voron, not sure if that's my personal bias.

[–] IMALlama 2 points 5 days ago

I knew my way around a printer before building my Voron, but the act of building it from the ground up really helps get you back to the basics: these are really just CNC hot glue guns and the components are not very hard to modify and replace. It's easy to build up a layer of mistique, which leads to not wanting to tinker, when confronted with something new.

You don't have to pick up CAD skills to build a printer, but odds are you'll find an opportunity to design some parts or iterate on someone else's design.

I've been proficient at CAD for longer than I've had printers, but as you know printers make turning ideas into physical parts fairly easy. It took a little while for me to start printint jigs and functional prints, but once I transitioned from thinking "this annoys me" to "I bet I could design something to make this easier" I kept finding more and more opportunities to design things. To me, this matters a lot more than being proficient in CAD. I would say the same thing about programming - understanding where you want to go and why you want to get there can often be more important than writing the actual code.

I've been designing and printing things with my kids as long as they've been alive. At this point they take for granted that I'll be able to design and print something to either fix a broken toy or make something better. They're only 4 and 7, but they do like watching and "helping" me when I have CAD open. More importantly to me, they're also identifying opportunities to make something.

Good luck with your kid! I hope you're able to create an environment where their curiosity moves them in the direction of wanting to create things.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I think the wording of the last paragraph hilights that you have goals for his learning and goals for him finding joy in it.

It's easy for an enthusiastic parent to force their own "goals" on a child. If you want them to truly find joy in it, and have the same enthusiasm as you do, it is a better approach to just make everything available and foster open learning.

You may already know all this, just your word choice came across a bit overbearing parent.

Let them exlore but use you as a resource as needed. If you helicopter and constantly suggest they do what you have already learned then they don't get any of those discovery moments and the joy isn't realized.

[–] Machinist 8 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I get what you're expressing. I'm not going to try and force him to enjoy it if he hates it.

However, he's about to be as old as I was when I got my first job. Some personal discipline is necessary. The family business is going to be machining and at minimum, he will push buttons and load parts at some point.

He spends several hours a day playing Storm works and has been teaching himself the Lua scripting that is in it. He has expressed interest in civil engineering, architect, and all sorts of mechanical things. He's nuts about cars, tractors, trucks.

We're kind of reaching the point where the rubber meets the road. I have provided Arduinos, discrete component kits, knives for whittling, his own rolling tool chest, pirate server, rpi, FFA involvement, python, and so on. There has been some engagement, but, not the deep engagement he shows with gamified machines.

I need him spending less time gaming, even if it is an engineering based game, and more time building some practical skills. He's at the age to begin transitioning to an adult. He'll be driving soon. It is time to be a little firmer about learning real world mechanical skills. It's my duty.

He's been very excited about the printers at school and the seat of Fusion. I'm hoping this will spark the fire.

Given his interests, it's critical he actually learn how to model instead of playing with the limited implementation in something like stormworks. (He frequently shows me machinery he's built in game and we discuss them.)

He did built a kit picnic table this year, where he had to chop saw the 2x4s and screw it together. I've about got RTFM hammered into him.

I'm also pushing him to research his interests instead of just watching YouTube videos. He doesn't have to be a machinist or even mechanical, even though his interests are there. However, he must begin learning how to work and teach himself.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Ah, by kid I was thinking 8 or 9 LOL

[–] Machinist 1 points 5 days ago

Yah, these days I refer to anyone under 30 as a kid. Especially in a manufacturing or trade context.

[–] Prok 3 points 1 week ago

I had great luck with Anycubic as my first printer... If you want to have a larger variety of materials available I recommend a printer with an enclosure (depending on the age of your kid, it's a bit safer too?)

I will try I haven't used them recently but a friend of mine uses a Kobra 4 which produces prints very close in quality to my X1Carbon (I know...). That one has no enclosure, but the Kobra 3 is still available for even less if you really just want to see if the hobby takes hold. They have a Kobra S1 which seems like a decent option but I haven't done any research.

My personal advice would be to not skimp too much on cost... Trying to stick with my older hardware nearly killed the hobby for me since everyone around me was printing higher quality it a quarter of the time....