Fediverse

We've had this exact conversation in this community two months ago already, in case you want to back read the comments from back then. Nothing significant has changed

To paraphrase my opinion from back then:

• Easier onboarding, and a familiar, easier UX
• customizable feeds you can subscribe to + starterpacks instantly give you full timelines and people to follow (and followers, if you're in many starter packs)
• better discoverability, and therefore higher engagement
• stacking moderation and excellent security features (e.g. detachable quote boosts, "the nuclear block")
• many users who tried Mastodon first had bad experiences with "HOA"-like behavior and over-enthusiastic mods

Because it pretends to be different to the centralised corporate social media platforms, whilst giving the cohesive experience of a centralised platform

You have to understand we are not normal users. Anyone even remotely interested in federated software are not normal users.

Bluesky may not have 57 third party apps and that’s why people are flocking to it. It’s easy. The signup process through the app involved no selecting of servers, no understanding of what it actually is under the hood, and users are greeted by a default algorithm that feels very much like old Twitter before Musk.

Basically, regular users do not care about the fediverse and just want a competent and polished app and site experience.

It's shiny, they advertise, put in a money to spread the word. And the onboarding process probably is way easier?! Also back when Mastodon was in the media, it wasn't yet the right time. Now, especially with Musk, it is. And the attention is on Bluesky since that is newer and what's hyped right now.

I've got an idea as to why.

I went to mastodon.social and see a Linux meme, some heavy political commentary, and a bunch of posts about mastodon being better than Twitter.

I then went to bluesky.app and see some political riffing, cute animals, a comic, some jokes, a company, and even Don Lemon.

The average person checking them both out for the first time, mastodon is nerd shit and Bluesky is normal shit.

I'm dabbling in Bluesky atm. Having run my own Masto server for over a year at this point. Here's things I've found that Bluesky does just plain better - mostly cause it's not beholden to the whims of the ActivityPub protocol.

• Shows me all replies to any post I happen to come across.
• Lets me see all posts about things I happen to search/look for, including hashtags.
• I don't have to worry about being unable to see content I haven't personally blocked (not so much of an issue on a small/single server like mine though).
• I can repost things (not actually too bothered with this one but many people want it).
• I can set per post reply permissions to a very granular level (no-one, mentioned, followers, specific followers)
• It handles video in a way that works i.e. I can post them, and people can watch them with minimal buffering/waiting.
• Gives me access to community built collections/algorithms that expose the content I want to see.
• It defaults to providing an additional feed driven by what the people I'm following are liking/interacting with.
• Finally, a big one for new users, it provided a default feed of content when I first logged in so that I had something to look at.

The first two are huge on a small/single user server. By default we get nothing, following a single account will get us the content of just that account and the replies that they happen to reply to. A post may get 200 replies, but unless I go looking on the original server I will see a fraction of that. Technical solutions exist to help with this but the Fediverse's penchant for privacy and control (quite rightly) limits the effectiveness (Fedifetcher, GetMoarFedi).

3 is something most people won't think about. But if they become aware they're not seeing something they thought they'd be able to they then have to deep dive into who's defederating who and why.

Most all the other points just make the whole thing a much more seamless experience for your average user. Bootstrapping a list of people to follow on a small server is hard (I'd absolutely recommend creating a Fediverse account somewhere large first to build up some sort of list before migrating)

Because centralized services are easier to use.

Average users do not even remotely care about federated software and/or decentralisation. That is techno-babble to them and their eyes will glaze over if you try to market that to them.

That being said: Mastodon does a shit job at explaining how it works, how to use it, and what its advantages are. The Joinmastodon landing page just assumes you already know how a fair bit about instances work and what federated software is and does a very poor job explaining it. And even then, most users won't care either way. They just want to click a Join button and be done.

Bluesky allows me to use my domain as my identity and make my own moderation decisions without having to run my own instance.

The people leaving Twitter right now want Twitter minus Elon. That's Bluesky. They've heard a couple of their Twitter follows mention it and they've gone to their app store where they find an app called Bluesky, install it and easily join and start using it. Once they do they are finding it pretty straightforward to find people they used to follow on Twitter.

That's all people want.

Because none of those points matter to the average user.

it's been better marketed, and people struggle with the concept of federation and picking a server. and I guess the invite-only, artificial exclusivity strat has actually paid off for them initially, unlike for Google+.

also, a matter of culture. I've seen many newcomers complain about how some long time users act as HOA, reminding everyone to act according to the long-standing rules. many people of colour have experience many forms of racist behaviour, too, which has driven some communities away.

oh, and the federation/defederation business sometimes gets way too messy, which [cynic mode on] makes it difficult for people who want their Personal Brand™ to gain as many followers as possible over the entire network.

People want a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. They want Twitter without Musk.

Bluesky is a 100%, 1:1, perfect clone of immediate pre-Musk Twitter. It is Twitter without Musk.

It looks exactly like Twitter, it feels exactly like Twitter (both the Web interface and the official app), and it's for tech-illiterate dumb-dumbs.

Only recently has an instance selector been added to the sign-up process of the official app, but Bluesky still markets itself to its users as the self-same kind of centralised monolithic silo as Twitter and Facebook.

Mastodon has a vastly different UI and UX from immediate pre-Musk Twitter, but people don't want to learn anything new. And truth be told, I've read from Misskey/Forkey users that Misskey and the Forkeys actually have an easier-to-use Web UI than Mastodon.

Also, Mastodon advertises the fact that it's decentralised with lots of instances to choose from, even though the gGmbH would rather want everyone to be on mastodon.social. This freaks people out.

Joining Mastodon is actually no more difficult than joining Bluesky in practice because the official app railroads everyone to mastodon.social without forcing them. But people won't know until they've actually installed and opened that app.

The only reason why Mastodon grew so quickly to such an enormous size in late 2022 was because it was the only alternative to Twitter that anyone knew, including those who pulled Twitter users onto Mastodon. The only other advantage it had over anything else was that, unlike Twitter, it didn't have Musk and uncontained droves of Nazis. Had people been sent to Akkoma or Calckey instead of Mastodon, it would have exploded the same.

Inb4 "How can people use e-mail then?" That's because everyone's on Gmail, and many think e-mail is a proprietary Google product.

It has an algorithm that puts content in front of you, unlike Mastodon where it only puts what you ask for in your feed. I'm convinced that if Mastodon populated people with low following count's feed with random posts it wouldn't have bled as many users as it did.

Every platform and app I've seen does a piss poor job of explaining what federation is and how to sign up. "Wtf is mastodon.social?, Why is this one in German?, Why can't I login after signing up?" New users just get confused and give up.

I remember the “big movement” when Twitter turned into a right wing cesspool.

At first, the biggest problem was that there were TWO main alternatives: Mastodon and Bluesky. So those who left split into two groups, ending up with a dead timeline, missing out on news. (I and my “bubble” use it to keep up with Covid vaccines, politics, safety etc.)

I joined the Mastodon group, because it solves the problem of a single crazy billionaire potentially buying & enshittifying it. But I fully admit that it is not user friendly at all. People who are not in IT just want it to WORK, like Twitter used to. They don’t want to “educate themselves” about servers, fediverse and networks. The user experience clearly hasn’t even been a thing. It’s techies writing software for themselves. What it needs is a full analysis of the experience from the start: Who are you, user, why are you considering Mastodon, what are your expectations, what are the experiences in the first 30 seconds after entering “mastadon” (oh, you misspelled it?) or “twitter alternative” into a search engine, etc. “pick an instance” is already the passive-aggressive demand nobody wants to hear.

In the end, my instance was shut down without a fair warning, all the reconnected and new contacts lost, no option to move. Trying Bluesky now, but many stayed at Twitter (now X), moved to Mastodon with or without success (most onto my dead instance), or gave up on microblogging.

I think we need something simple again. I remember what SUSE did for Linux in the 90s. Linux users were all like: Only debian is even somewhat useable, but if you should really do LFS. Non-techies willing to switch for “political” or other reasons were hit in the face with “Pick a distro!!!”. SUSE has been called “the Windows among the Linux distros” by those people, but it did the right thing. It provided exactly the simplification we needed: “This is Linux, you simply buy it on CD in a retail store like your other software, you run the installer.” It was a good thing.

IRC is the one good old thing that still works great. When they tried to enshittify freenode, we just moved, collectively. Many non-IT channels & servers died after 2010, though.

At least for Japanese users, they want to see content they love from creators relevant to them. Creators = illustrator, comic artist, photographer, cosplayer, writer, etc.

Creators want a stable platform that allows them to widen their reach and potentially making more money.

Mastodon at the moment are tend to be hostile against creators that wants to monetize their work. Not to forget, the creator you want to follow are on defederated or blocks your instance for random admin drama.

But hey, at least fediverse software like Misskey actually trying to serve these community. Like allowing community ads (like promoting indie comics, vtuber, or social event) and trying to be stable by resolving any potential instance problem together with zero drama. Misskey community also often have tendency to "decoupling from Western tech supremacy"

It's the path of least resistance to achieve Musklessness. The second two of the positives you listed are actually negatives to the average Joe. Choice paralysis, overwhelming number of apps and servers, these are things that put people off even trying, especially if there are easier-to-use alternatives that are familiar and instant.

Mastodon is great, but it's not quite there yet in terms of convenience. Too much copying and pasting and clicking through to different instances in order to read old posts etc. It needs to be more cohesive in a way that doesn't require constantly leaving your timeline or going into the settings.

It's also the case that the Twitter diaspora who are famous tend to choose BlueSky, and that brings a lot of people along with them.

And it's also the case that Mastodon doesn't have much of a marketing campaign outside of word-of-mouth, whereas BlueSky does.

This article gives a good view from an average user's perspective.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/i-tried-replacing-twitter-with-bluesky-threads-and-mastodon-heres-what-i-found/

The platform is decentralized and has community ran servers.

For most people that's a complication, not a bonus.

It's just easier. I have both but I almost never use Mastodon anymore. Federation there doesn't seem to work right. I didn't know what an instance was so I joined mastodon.social. Finding and following people in the app doesn't always seem to work right if they're on another instance. Doing it in a browser is even more painful.

The people I liked to follow and interact with on X, many tried Mastodon and abandoned it, and many more are now on Bluesky. This creates momentum to "follow the crowd" as it were.

Additionally, you only have one chance to make a first impression. A lot of us tried Mastodon earlier and it wasn't ready. Bluesky started as invite-only, which drummed up interest before catching this zeitgeist of people leaving X.

Lastly, and maybe it's just me, but the font sizing on the official Mastodon app on Android is generally too small and can't be changed. Bluesky allows me to change it and make it more comfortable to use.

because bsky actually listened to their users and implemented features they asked for unlike mastodon who attacked migrators during the first twitter migration.

bsky also had a bunch of marginalised people - including trans people - as early adopters that helped shape their views on moderation.

Unpopular opinion here, but: as opposed to other twitter clones like Hive Social and such, that also look sleek and are simple, but didn't go anywhere, Bluesky did manage to attract a sizeable crowd of creative and talented open source indie devs that are passionate about it and build cool stuff on atproto. Whether it's custom feeds or star sign labelers or alternative clients that add more features or entirely new appviews like the oekaki board PinkSea, you get the feeling it is a pretty vibrant ecosystem and this has sustained it all these months.

While this is true for the Fediverse as well, I think it's fair to say that there have been rumblings here about lack of direction and proper stewardship of the Fediverse and if you want this place to succeed you can't just sweep it under the rug, shrug your shoulders and say "well, people who pick Bluesky over Mastodon are just stupid".

People want to leave X, but they still want the same old, rather than new stuff to make things better as a whole. They don't want to have to do this "pick a server" thing, they want to have an algorithm spoonfeed them popular content, and it would be best for them to have to put in zero extra effort. In Masto you have to put in the hashtags to get found, and search for and follow people and hashtags to find stuff you want, and essentially DIY-ing your feed seems to be too much work for people.

Interest in hobbies related to commercial brands (following sports, movie franchises, etc.)

When you even mention that you'd like to follow brand accounts, people start shouting at you how commercial scum needs to be banned/defederated.

Of course people move to platforms where their interests are represented.

I can only assume BlueSky feels more familiar.

Mastodon requires a bit of effort, lacking an algorithm to drive content toward users, so you have to do a bit more yourself.

install mastodon

Pick an instance

Hit up all

giant penis

That's why. That's the reason.

but you could review the instance beforehand...

Is Jimbo Normalman going to review the instance beforehand? Lmao.

I honestly can't wrap my head around how to use Mastodon. Idk how to search for things that would interest me.

I'm just glad Lemmy exists.

Sign up process is easier. No existential decisions to be made to get started.

@Sunshine I've shared my thoughts a couple times in similar threads 1 and 2, but to summarize:

One reason is because I think other protocols have some advantages. AT is better end user ease of use wise, and plans to let you control your account via a keypair (already possible with your own PDS). Nostr is more heavily decentralized and considerably more flexible than the other two. That can siphon off existing users or have new users drawn to those spaces. Not to say that ActivityPub doesn't also have its own advantages too, but everybody has different preferences and there's now more choice.

There's also some Activity Pub specific toxicity issues. Too aggressive defederation leads to a point where you can't communicate with most people, and there's some opinions in the space that have turned some people away.

But of course things go up and down, and are never a strait line. I'm guessing all three big protocols will continue to grow, and as they get more interconnected everybody wins, and even if Activity Pub has hit a slump the ecosystem of people you can talk to using it has grown 10x+.

Outside if summarizing my previous takes, there have been some new(ish) things I've seen that don't quite sit right. Things from the top down like the social web director refusing to go to conferences that people from other protocols will be present and encouraging people to not even talk about other protocols. Or - anicdotally - seeing random users happy that the influxes are going to others because they don't want 'normies' on Activity Pub or declaring anybody still using Twitter/X a Nazi sympathizer if not an outright Nazi. If the Activity Pub scene is getting really protectionist it could start also having a negative effect.

Again, overall I expect it to continue trending upwards, and there's a plethora of factors that are unrelated to anything negative regarding Activity Pub's community, but the above (and previous two posts) are the stuff I figured worth bringing up and potentially factors in why ActivityPub has seen weaker adoption compared to the other two big ones more recently.

You want the bullshit "Mastodon is too complicated and hard to use!" answer or the real answer?

BlueSky has rich people behind it.

Because BlueSky will get them more engagement than Mastodon.

I think it’s much more difficult to find people to follow. I personally struggle a lot, and will likely either gave up the micro-blogging system or try another platform. It was great on Twitter before Musk bought it, but since I left, I have yet to find an alternative.

Mastodon is a pain in the ass to get signed up for anyone under room temperature IQ, so, like, most of Twitter's users, even the ones smart enough to leave.

57 different 3rd party apps is probably a good start. Mastodon has to be easy to on-board and it isn’t for someone with no technical understanding what domains, servers or instances are. To that group Bluesky makes sense. You are signing up for Bluesky. Try to onboard that group to mastodon and they don’t understand if they are on mastodon.social or mastodon.world or any other instance.

Why would they be on one of those fringe services with less users than bluesky? That’s what a non expert understands

People like simple and easy to use.

Bluesky got that, fediverse in general don't have that.