this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2024
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[–] [email protected] 115 points 2 months ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 57 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Yep, but you also need to get rid of FPTP.

Without that, gerrymendring won't work, and you'll actually be able to get more than two parties as realistic optiobs to vote for.

[–] acosmichippo 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (6 children)

the inherent problem is you'd need some of the less populous states to voluntarily give their disproportionate power away. Even if they agree at the time that a popular vote is in their favor, that doesn't mean it will be forever. It's in their best interest to never give that power up.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Maybe it's time to re-randomize the map. Six Californias, merge a couple Dakotas, and a new state called "Steve" in the middle of Texas for no good reason.

States seem to be a classic seemed-sensible-in-1790 hack, goofier and less relevant as time goes on. At best you get arbitrage plays, finding the most comfortable jurisdiction for your particular graft. At worst, it seems to be a great line for the scum too stupid and/or crooked to get a federal position to settle at.

I wonder if a UK-style model, where the regional governments are devolved narrow lists of things they can play at government with, would work better.

[–] PugJesus 8 points 2 months ago

Luv me states. Luv me history. But realistically speaking, if they could be abolished and replaced with nearly any other modern system of national/regional government organization, it would be massive improvement.

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[–] [email protected] 70 points 2 months ago (3 children)

However, many other delegates were adamant that there be an indirect way of electing the president to provide a buffer against what Thomas Jefferson called “well-meaning, but uninformed people.”

How disappointed he would be to see his idea for protecting against decisions being made by the uninformed masses having been so subverted by the very system he supported.

[–] errer 22 points 2 months ago

Any system that remains static for decades inevitably gets gamed by the powers that be. Sadly it seems we might be past the point of no return for this country…this election is everything

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The system he supported wasn't one where the House was capped at a limit causing the Electoral college to be skewed towards the minority.

Issues with the electoral college can be resolved by getting rid of the Reapportionment Act and moving towards Star or RCV voting. Both are significantly easier to do than passing an Amendment to get rid of the EC.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago

Working as Thomas Jefferson intended. The "well-meaning, but uninformed people" were those who opposed slavery and today oppose the land owning class.

[–] [email protected] 47 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

It's not just the electoral college. The US was the first big modern democracy, and all the democracies that have sprung up since took one look at its structure and said "nah". This includes democracies the US directly helped setup in their current form, such as Germany, Japan, and Iraq. Nobody wants to replicate that structure, including the US.

States as semi-sovereign entities rather than administrative zones? Nope. Every state gets two reps in the upper legislative branch? Nope. Those two reps plus at least one lower legislative rep means that the smallest state gets at least three votes in the Electoral College? What madness is that? Even the executive being separate from the head of the legislative branch is uncommon everywhere else.

Parliamentary systems, where the Prime Minister is both head of the legislative branch and the executive, are more common. Some of these split some of the duties of the executive off into a President, but that President isn't as singularly powerful as the US President. The US idea that the different branches would have checks and balances against each other was rendered pointless the moment the first political parties were developed.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 16 points 2 months ago

Even the executive being separate from the head of the legislative branch is uncommon everywhere else.

The Presidential System (as distinct from the Prime Ministerial System) is common throughout Latin America and West Africa. Incidentally, it is also a governmental structure more vulnerable to coups and similar violent takeovers, as the President being in conflict with the Legislature often leads to these snap power grabs rather than more well-defined transitions of power after elections.

The US idea that the different branches would have checks and balances against each other was rendered pointless the moment the first political parties were developed.

Well, that's another big difference between the US system and systems in countries with more settled populations. Regional parties (the Scottish National Party being a large and distinct block of voters in the UK, the uMkhonto weSizwe as a Zulu nationalist group in South Africa, the Taiwan Solidarity Union as a Taiwanese nativist faction, or Otzma Yehudit in Israel which draws its doctrine from a single ultra-nationalist Rabbi Meir Kahane) can all exist in parliamentary systems in a way that a Mormon Party or a Texas Party or an African-American Party has failed to materialize in the United States.

The idea of checks and balances doesn't work when you're forced into coalition with one of the two dominant (heavily coastal) parties to have any sway in Congress or within the Presidential administration. And that goes beyond just "Voting for President". The Democrats don't nominate bureaucratic leaders (Sec of State, Attorney General, etc), the President does. This gives enormous influence to a singular individual who functions as both Party Leader and National Leader.

Compare this to Brazil or Germany or India or Israel, where power-sharing agreements between caucusing parties encourage the incoming Prime Minister to choose from the leaders of aligned party groups to fill cabinet positions. There's an immediate payoff to being the head of a small but influential partisan group under the PM system in a way that the American system doesn't have.

Now, do you want Anthony Blinken or Janet Yellen to have to hold a Congressional seat and act as Secretary of State or Secretary of Treasury? Idk. I've seen Brits scoff at this system as being its own kind of mess. But I can imagine a country in which a Yellen-equivalent head of the Liberals for Better Economic Policy Party has half a dozen seats and Blinken's Americans for NATO Party has half a dozen seats, and this is what Biden needs to be Prime Minister, so he appoints them to his cabinet as a trade-in for their support.

[–] Dasus 40 points 2 months ago

Pretend democracy

[–] Gammelfisch 35 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The Electoral College is outdated and should be dissolved. Another problem in the USA, the wealthy are admired and considered heroes. In the EU, nobody trusts the bastards and people will strike. I believe the French are the best when they disagree with their leaders and upper class because they would drag out the guillotine.

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[–] [email protected] 29 points 2 months ago (3 children)

The only reason we have it is because Republicans know that if we got rid of it, they'd never win the white house again without overhauling the whole party.

See Also: Why Puerto Rico and Washington DC are not states

[–] PugJesus 17 points 2 months ago (1 children)

"Hey, Puerto Rico is economically moderate and somewhat socially conservative! You should really want them as a state, right GOP?"

GOP: "Uh, it's just about the shade of... c-cultural differences..."

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

The thing is, the GOP is dying and they know that. They built a brand around elderly blue collar white folks who love the bible they've never read and are so racist they even hate white guys with a tan....

Their brand appeals to this guy and excludes everyone else. That's why they Gerrymander, that's why they don't want fair elections, that's why they've became supportive of fascist ideals.

They know they either fade away and cease to be or...

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[–] [email protected] 26 points 2 months ago (4 children)

The title should probably specify "for a presidential election". France uses an electoral college for its Sénat, it's made of regional/departmental elected people.

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[–] anticolonialist 22 points 2 months ago (3 children)

And they won't let go of it because the Electoral College keeps the wealthy in power.

[–] jordanlund 6 points 2 months ago

As loathe as I am to use a BS argument...

Both Sides are wealthy. ;)

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[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Well yea, this country is held hostage by the shitbag wealth class. Get rid of them. Tax them out of the wealth they lied, cheated, and stole via tax schemes, loopholes, and other criminal activity. We still have the power.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

What are you talking about, Bozos and Muskrat absolutely earned the 100 billion increase in their wealth over the last 10 years! They just Work Harder™ and are More Valuable™ than us!

/Wrist

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

As long as they're able to mislead a bunch of stupid idiots to think that things that don't affect them, such as trans rights, they'll keep winning. Class solidarity is impossible when your fellow-poor believe that immigrants are the reason they're poor. Unfortunately, they've succeeded in keeping people stupid and uneducated.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

Problem is that half the population is willing to keep the wealth class in power. And, ironically, many in that half of the population are among the poorest in the nation who believe the wealth will eventually trickle down to them.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago

Do you think if the electoral college was banned that criminals would give up theirs? Wake up, the only thing that stops a bad guy with an electoral college is a good guy with an electoral college!

[–] [email protected] 11 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Something something healthcare is a right elsewhere too something something

We can and should do better.

[–] Sam_Bass 11 points 2 months ago (2 children)

what other country ever did?

[–] PugJesus 17 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (2 children)

The Roman Republic.

No, really - the Tribal Assembly, the democratic legislature of the Republic, was divided by tribes, and tribes sorted according to geographic residence. Urban tribes got 4 votes, and rural tribes got 31 votes. Just like today!

[sobbing]

[–] Sam_Bass 4 points 2 months ago

thx 4 the info. always nice to learn some history. one of my favorite subjects in school

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[–] panicnow 5 points 2 months ago (1 children)

The article points out France, Finland, Argentina.

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[–] Suavevillain 8 points 2 months ago

It is wild to have your state's vote almost predetermined before you cast it.

[–] NateNate60 7 points 2 months ago

It's not a national election, but in Hong Kong, a 1,500-member Beijing-controlled electoral college elects the Chief Executive of Hong Kong and controls nearly half of the legislature.

[–] aesthelete 7 points 2 months ago

Republicans are all anti college until you're talking the electoral one.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Are there many other countries locked in a two party system?

[–] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago (1 children)

US, UK, Australia, New Zealand and some other smaller countries.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago (2 children)
[–] WhatAmLemmy 6 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

Australia's isn't based on FPTP or anything explicitly, nefariously, anti-democratic — except the part where media ownership is one of the most monopolised of all western "democracies", or the part where most state and federal politicians are financed by the wealthiest individuals and corporations (not in the American direct payment, openly corrupt, kind of way. More in the golden parachute, regulatory capture, quid pro quo kind of way).

Interesting how 5 eyes are all stuck in a plutocratic two-party system, huh? Almost like the MIC and most advanced mass surveillance apparatus in history has a lot more influence over our politics than any of us realise...

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[–] chonglibloodsport 4 points 2 months ago (3 children)

Not Canada. The NDP is more than just a spoiler. They hold the balance of power right now!

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 2 months ago

It's not just the electoral college that causes that issue though, first past the post is the culprit in Canada and our lack of precedent for minority alliances doesn't help.

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[–] CharlesDarwin 5 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago) (1 children)

USA! USA!

Look, I really do love my country. As unfashionable as that sometimes seems on the left. But it ain't perfect. There are a lot of things that need worked on. Our healthcare situation is subpar. Our labor protections - bleh. Same for consumer protections. There are lots of things we could do to study other models and try to bring them here (except for the regressives here that hold everything back, that is).

But one of the very worst is our Electoral College and the way the House is capped. The Senate system should get an overhaul, too. Two Senators from every state, no matter how many people live there? The EC was a slavery era thing and should be abolished, but the Senate thing should get an overhaul as well. I don't know the kinds of populations the 13 colonies had, but I doubt there was anything like the magnitude of California/Texas/Florida/New York/PA/etc vs. Wyoming. Maybe the makeup of states should get reconsidered if we cannot change the number of Senators - maybe split up California into smaller states, maybe combine some of the flyover states that have almost no one in them...

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 months ago

Forgot to mention the genocide you guys are funding, the millions of other brown people killed by your military and the wealth extraction you’re doing in Africa and South America.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 months ago

This isn't news. I mean, even if it is just now true, the United States being a "Democratic Republic" that promised citizens the vote and then kept a body who basically sat around to subvert the popular vote when things got close was largely considered to be another aspect of the USA's rather f****d up interpretation of "freedom".

[–] rsuri 5 points 2 months ago

It all goes back to the negotiation at the start of the country: "We want to vote" vs. "We don't want those people to vote"

[–] [email protected] 4 points 2 months ago (1 children)

Would it be much of an issue if we insisted presidential powers were limited to what they were when the Constitution came into force? Today's presidents (both parties) greatly exceed the powers of Washington and Jefferson.

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