rule problem : 196

[–] [email protected] 136 points 8 months ago (18 children)

We don't know what Biden is saying behind closed doors, but I'd be willing to bet my left nut that he's really angry at Netanyahu.

Bibi knows he would get full support to wipe out Gaza from Trump.

Biden is still trying to help within a certain frame by sending aid and asking Netanyahu to stop killing civilians. But that's only as much as he can do without completely pulling all funding, weapons and ammo. But there's risks associated to that. Especially with the threat of Iran in the middle East. He doesn't want to lose the support of one of the only allies, if not the only one, in the region.

The whole thing is very complex. There's lots of things at play here and it's all a bunch of shades of gray. Nothing is black and white.

However, there's only one thing that's really important here. Trump must lose. A Trump win would be devastating for world peace. I don't think Americans understand enough how much their country is a central pillar for world peace. The Gaza genocide could be nothing compared to the world wide cluster fuck we could be in if Trump wins.

So get your heads out of your asses, swallow your fucking pride and do the world a fucking favor by voting for the only candidate who still has a chance at not bringing a third, and possibly ultimate, world war.

[–] [email protected] 40 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

For real - Trump would have sent whole squadrons of B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza without warning or allowance for any civilian evacuation.

I voted uncommitted in my primary on Tuesday. But I am sure as shit voting for the Democratic nominee, whoever it turns out to be, but realistically, it’s going to be Biden.

I understand precisely how central the US is to world stability at large. I’m not trying to claim the US is perfect, or unambiguously good - we have absolutely done a lot of shitty things over the years. I will assert that the world would likely be a lot more dangerous in a holistic sense if it weren’t for the US’s post-WW2 leadership in the western hemisphere.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 8 months ago

The US has deliberately destabilized the Middle East, South and Central America and Southern Asia. What you describe as holistic sense, is in fact the opposite. It is limited to a western perspective, that was culturally formed by almost a century of American supremacism, denial of non western perspectives in media and manufacturing consent propaganda in all levels of society..

The Vietnam war was largely an effort to destabilize the region and prevent economic development by defending a brutal post colonial regime against its own people. It wasn even about communism, as the US was happy to help the genocidal Red Khmer in Cambodia.

The US has toppled something like a dozen democratically elected governments in South and Central America and installed brutal, often fascist regimes, to maximise US company profits.

The US destroyed Iraq, leading to the Insurgency and subsequently ISIS, to keep the Middle East at perpetual destablization after it started to become more stable in the early 2000s. The momentum was then used to destabilize Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. While claiming it was about "democracy" the US was happy to support the coup in Egypt after they kicked out Mubarak and held elections. The now installed Sisi is even worse than Mubarak.

The final example should be Afghanistan, where 20 years of US occupation created nothing tangible and had the country fall back under Taliban control before the last US troops were out.

[–] zeppo 26 points 8 months ago (1 children)

First thing trump would do is stop all Ukraine aid and give Putin the green light, second thing he'd do is withdraw from NATO.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

Exactly.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

He literally said today that he will never stop supporting and arming Israel.

[–] IsThisAnAI 6 points 8 months ago

I wish more people understood you some deescalate by screaming we're going to kick your ass and force you to stop. That is unless you all want the US fighting on a third front and are willing to eat that cost.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 8 months ago

I think a Trump win could mean at least soldiers being sent to Gaza and Ukraine being handed over to Putin in the name of "peace", which would fuel the territorial ambitions of other dictators. A lot of Hungarians are still mad about Treaty of Trianon, see Slovaks as a "fake nation created by the Habsburgs/Jews/communists", and this is only my country. China has it's own territorial ambitions, so are most other regimes.

[–] Daft_ish 3 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (1 children)

The fact we have to keep explaining this is dire. You think Trump supporters have to have concerted campaigns everytime Trump eats a baby? No, they lose nothing and we have to keep hearding fucking cats.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago

Oh I'm not trying to convince Trump supporters. I'm trying to convince liberals who won't vote for Biden over one issue: the Israel-Gaza conflict. Effectively handing over the presidential election to Trump.

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[–] [email protected] 51 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (4 children)

Honestly the Trolley Problem is a perfect representation of this issue. All leftists in America are being asked to either personally hold a part in a genocide, or to personally abstain and allow greater horrors to be unleashed (including the genocide).

[–] [email protected] 18 points 8 months ago (2 children)

I feel like if it really mapped so cleanly onto the trolley problem, there wouldn't need to be 4 paragraphs of text included throughout the meme in an attempt to head off any arguments...

[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago)

The general election vote itself is the trolley problem, the paragraphs are detailing other solutions beyond simple voting to try and get out of the trolley problem.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (1 children)

This just goes to show how convoluted Democrat "logic" becomes. They have to do all of these mental gymnastics instead of simply just voting for the Green Party. I'm so glad I'm not a Democrat.

[–] TotallynotJessica 4 points 8 months ago* (last edited 8 months ago) (2 children)

I don't. I only think about it because you keep insisting that there is another valid option, yet I can never find an argument from you that holds water.

I was convinced by some of you that the primary protest vote is good, but I have never heard a coherent plan for the general besides playing chicken with liberals. I see alternative actions that don't assume liberals are smart, yet have more predictable gains. Vote blue AND do other stuff.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (2 children)

Primary season is almost over, your chances of getting this done is narrowing.

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[–] [email protected] 15 points 8 months ago (4 children)

I just want to point out a thing said in this, that I have seen said hundreds of other times, which is not correct.

Due to the spoiler effect, a leftist vote for a third party candidate is essentially a vote for trump

This is incorrect, most charitably interpreted as an exaggeration, but it is said so often I think people are misunderstanding the spoiler effect.

The spoiler effect is real and it can suppress a victory of not-as-bad candidates if they have a popular opposition, but it is never as bad as "essentially voting for trump". It is equivalent to not voting at all, at worst.

And it is also a simplification of the situation to imply that the spoiler effect only affects democrats. There is a similar thing going on with conservative third parties.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 8 months ago

eh, you're still effectively supporting trump by not voting for the party that can actually win instead.

It's not as bad as voting for trump, but it's still giving him a better shot at winning than he would have if you voted for biden

[–] Stovetop 11 points 8 months ago (11 children)

But if I'm a leftist, wouldn't I rather any candidate win over the furthest right one?

Obviously I'd want a leftist to be the president, but US politics doesn't work outside of the binary. I voted third party in 2016 and regretted it a lot.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 8 months ago

you know what, you are absolutely correct and i would have the same criticism about this post if i saw someone else post it.

i think my mind slipped when i was putting it together and typed words that meant more than i did. my fault.

ill make an effort to fix this.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 8 months ago

It is equivalent to not voting at all, at worst.

And this only because some places won't count your votes if the difference isn't big enough to swing the election. This ought to be illegal, but it isn't.

[–] TotallynotJessica 11 points 8 months ago

The worst part is that the US supporting Israel is a huge liability at this point for everyone involved. A regional war would harm all parties. There might not be be an Israel if they don't stop their genocide. All US investment will have gone to waste and the entire region will be devastated. Your enemies can't win if everyone is destroyed 💀

[–] [email protected] 10 points 8 months ago (1 children)

Godfuckingdamnit. This is syntax class all over again, isn't it? It's damn obvious, but there's some people who did actually need to solve the trolley problem, and still didn't.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 8 months ago (3 children)

i’m confused what are you saying

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[–] Crashumbc 4 points 8 months ago (2 children)

More Trump propaganda on Lemmy I see.

[–] kokopelli 19 points 8 months ago

This is the opposite?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 8 months ago

lol

[–] [email protected] 3 points 8 months ago (1 children)

"Spoiler effect" is so dumb. like oh, i'm the bad guy for voting for the candidate that you agree is better than the one you voted for??