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submitted 2 months ago by STRIKINGdebate2 to c/aboringdystopia
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[-] Pavidus 119 points 2 months ago

On the opposite end of the spectrum, you have viable career paths that are NOT being selected because the income simply won't be enough. We miss out on a lot of talented and motivated individuals that would love to get into a particular field, but it just doesn't pay as well. Teachers and corrections officers come to mind. The career I'm in was not my first choice, but it pays better than what I wanted to do.

[-] Thrillhouse 37 points 2 months ago

To be fair the correctional system in its current form in North America is primarily constructed and controlled by capitalist interests.

[-] Glitchington 23 points 2 months ago

Idk, I've never made enough money to live on and at this point never expect to. I'd rather do something I'm passionate about while I die under capitalism, than sit here feeling useless while I die under capitalism. Shit is depressing and unsustainable.

[-] Bakachu 21 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Fully agree with this. Anything in the arts immediately comes to mind. Not just performing arts either - history, literature, and philosophy fields have a lot more uncertainty with income than others.

This is one of the reasons why I favor UBI and universal health care. I think there's a growing deficit in overall creativity, leisure, and social engagement that the arts and other so-called lower-income jobs provide to society. And its not that people care more about money. You just dont have the option to pursue these jobs when your income level affects life or death decisions for you and your loves ones.

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[-] gAlienLifeform 92 points 2 months ago

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops.

Stephen Jay Gould

[-] theangryseal 74 points 2 months ago

I had a friend as a kid who made straight A’s the first semester in school every year, then straight F’s to the last semester where he’d pick it up just enough to pass. I remember a teacher laughing at him because his cousin blacked his eye while he was fighting his mother, “Oh, you mean a girl did that?”

Once he got to high school he couldn’t pass the 9th grade because the strategy of passing the first and last semester didn’t work anymore. He dropped out and got his GED. He took the test one time, scored 90% higher than average.

He slept in class every day because he spent his nights prepared to fight his dad when his dad attacked his mom.

I remember in middle school when the regular teacher was out long term for surgery, he handed a test to the substitute and she cried and apologized for not paying closer attention to him. She worked with him after that and he passed her class.

The last time I seen him, he was strung out on heroin and doing nothing. We went to school together from the 3rd grade until he dropped out and I only ever seen two teachers really try to help him. Police came to the school one time to photograph his bruise covered body and nothing ever came of it.

He used to write stories and give them to me on the bus. I asked him if he kept writing. He told me he hadn’t since his early 20s.

I can’t stand to think about how many kids out there have so much potential, only they’re stranded on an island with nowhere to put it.

[-] [email protected] 21 points 2 months ago

Fuck man, that's so sad. You tell it really well, too. I can't imagine hanging on if the adults in your life kept letting you down that consistently. Poor guy... And like you said, he's just one person. 0 doubt there are others out there there who've got it way worse (not that it's a contest).

Reminds us to try and be kind when we come across someone who's struggling. We don't know their story but guaranteed they have one.

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[-] Pirasp 57 points 2 months ago

Honestly, it's not just capitalism. Education is anywhere from free to really cheap in Germany, and we still don't get many people from poorer families into uni.

I see the main problem here as a sort of class divide between people with university degrees and people without. For example: if you work in a public library and don't have a uni degree you will never get more money than salary level 9 (4k/mo) just having a degree and not doing any more/different work more or less instantly puts you on 12 or higher (6k+)

This I think understandably makes people without uni degrees kind of resentful of those who do have them. And if you grow up resenting a certain group of people you are much less likely to join them.

So, no. "Just" getting rid of the cost won't magically get these people into higher education.

[-] [email protected] 19 points 2 months ago

Usually when people are in favour of getting rid of capitalism, they’re also in favour of getting rid of hierarchies such as class divide.

[-] Pirasp 9 points 2 months ago

Sure, but one does not inherently include the other.

[-] [email protected] 17 points 2 months ago

Capitalism does inherently include a class divide.

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[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Education is anywhere from free to really cheap in Germany, and we still don't get many people from poorer families into uni.

I am not German myself, but I am familiar with the system. Please correct me if things have evolved, but...

I thought the post-elementary education system in Germany was a tiered system. University admission requires completing the Abitur exams, but one can only feasibly do this if they've attended Gymnasium, or the "highest" tier of high school. It may be possible to do if one gets very high marks in Realschule (mid tier), along with Abitur preparation courses, but it's virtually impossible if one attends Hauptschule (lowest tier). These schools are not intended to provide university preparation, but instead provide a general education to prepare students for trades/vocational careers.

Whether a child attends Hauptschule, Realschule, or Gymnasium is decided at 9 or 10 years old, and is dependent on performance in elementary classes and teacher recommendations.

And when one considers that a child's educational performance is directly related to both familial socioeconomic status and parental educational attainment, it's not surprising that poorer people are less likely to attend or complete university.

Capitalists' dominant position within the class hierarchy necessitates exploitation of the working class, and this is maintained by fomenting division. This tiered system is just one manifestation of how society can be stratefied and divided.

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[-] Leviathan 34 points 2 months ago

Not being able to afford education isn't limited to the cost of the education either. If I have to take time to study it means I have to spend every hour of every day either working, in class, studying or working on school projects to also afford to eat and have shelter, and even then I think I'd have to choose between the two.

[-] [email protected] 33 points 2 months ago

Not that I think capitalism is good, but how exactly does any other system solve it? And I'm talking about real-world systems, not the idealized ones. Because the made-up unrealistic fable of capitalism has no problem with this either.

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[-] june 32 points 2 months ago

I think about this all the time with everything from professions to entertainment. I watch a lot of F1 and those guys are always called the best/most talented drivers in the world, and all I can think of is how the most talented driver in the world is probably a poor kid in India or China who’s starving to death that will never have the chance to develop that talent let alone drive a car.

We are missing out on so many brilliant minds because capitalism requires them to be at the bottom. Meritocracy isn’t real and never will be.

[-] Maggoty 11 points 2 months ago

Just watched a Bad Sports episode where a champion race driver couldn't break into the sport without become a drug trafficker to pay for it. So yeah that's already happened, just in Florida.

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[-] [email protected] 29 points 2 months ago

Even the people that can afford it no longer want to work in the industry because capitalism has made them entirely profit oriented and very unrewarding to be a part of, both financially and spiritually.

[-] [email protected] 27 points 2 months ago

there are lots of capitalst countries in europe where education is pretty much free. what you are talking about is neo-liberalism

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[-] [email protected] 27 points 2 months ago

Someone once said how many Einsteins have we missed out on because they were born in Ethiopia?

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

This is way more the problem than people missing out on going to medical school when they really wanted to.

Most people who are in the United States and want to go to a high paying career, can take out student loans and achieve something close, assuming good grades. Not that there aren't problems with that scenario, but everyone wants kids to get high paying jobs, society is organized around helping those kids.

Meanwhile, some people would be great authors or philosophers or artists if they didn't have to spend time making the money to survive. Those are valid goals that are being oppressed by the system.

And in the same way the global system is oppressing billions of people who are born as the rural poor and just not able to do much beyond subsistence farming.

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[-] [email protected] 24 points 2 months ago

Not only that, but think of all the intelligent people that could have done something to revolutionize a field but instead work in finance.

[-] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago

Or real estate, advertising, etc.

Capitalism wastes talent.

[-] BaardFigur 22 points 2 months ago

That's not a problem with capitalism, just deregulated capitalism. In Norway higher education is essentially free

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

So is in Czechia, public universities are free unless you repeat a year (and even then it is not very expensive and IIRC you pay a single fee, 2500$ Bachelor's, 3200$ Master's, and 20$ (yes 20) Doctor's, all per year - taken from my university). Textbooks are freely available in 99% of cases, the rest costs about 20$ printed but can be obtained for free in electronicformat, IIRC legally.

The quality is not perfect all the time, some curriculums are outdated or taught in strange ways, but it's ever-changing.

Of course, dorms and food are not free. But there are programs to at least partially accommodate that.

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[-] zerog_bandit 20 points 2 months ago

Capitalism isn't interested in your passion. Capitalism is interested in your ability to enhance the bottom line of the company you work for. Whether that's a hospital, a pharma company, a charity, etc etc.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil 24 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Capitalism is interested in your ability to enhance the bottom line of the company you work for.

That's a very broad reading of Capitalism as a system of incentives. But when you break it down, you find that it isn't holistically profit-maximizing. It is locally rent-seeking. Which is to say, if we all work for a freeway that moves $10M/day in commerce and I - personally - have the opportunity to erect a toll gate that earns me $100k/day but inhibits $1M/day in commerce as a result, I will build that toll gate.

We saw this problem play out with the collapse of the Sears Roebuck Company under CEO Edward Lampert. Lampert took the capitalist ideology to its logical conclusion and began pitting individual departments within the greater corporate behemoth against one another. Consequentially, he dissolved all the economies of scale Sears had aggregated. Far from enhancing the bottom line, his business strategy dissolved all the economies of integration and scale that the firm had built up over its 120 year history.

Wherever the tenants of rent-seeking are applied, individuals with power will attempt to extract surplus wealth from weaker agents beneath them, even when that would destabilize the system as a whole. This can be disastrous for the "bottom line". We used to even classify it as such, labeling these behaviors as "price gouging" and "embezzlement". Now we see these initiatives as "creative destruction" and applaud their implementation.

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[-] [email protected] 18 points 2 months ago

This is one reason why I advocate for free and open source software, this same exact reason. So many poor people/kids can't afford to pay for software they need that could help them achieve something.

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[-] Kyle_The_G 16 points 2 months ago

I feel like its almost a lottery in canada, I know a few people on their 4th-5th round of applications years after getting a university degree. These are good candidates too, 90-something average, volunteer... and then we wonder why theres a huge shortage of family doctors and wait times.

[-] Cyclist 11 points 2 months ago

Yeah we need to increase the size of our medical schools, but investing in education isn't a political priority. The "Why should I pay for sometimes education?" group is loud. "Who cares if it improves the country, I want lower taxes!"

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[-] [email protected] 15 points 2 months ago

I thought capitalism had something to do with capitalists owning the means of production and alienating labor from their work. Where I live most universities are public entities.

[-] [email protected] 12 points 2 months ago

You probably live in a social democracy, universities being public means there's some flavor of socialism (as in social democracy, not communism) in your country, with a regulated free market and capitalism.

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[-] [email protected] 14 points 2 months ago

Not everyone can be doctors or engineers or lawyers. We need operational personnel that work in retail, in construction, plumbers, electricians, etc. But this is not bad at all, we all need better work conditions. Since the beginning of humanity wealth has been inherited.

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[-] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago

That's an America problem, not a capitalism problem. Free, or at least highly subsidised, higher education isn't exactly limited to communist countries.

[-] [email protected] 16 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

Capitalism can keep people from studying because they need to work instead, or maybe they were in a low-income area and didn't get the chance to go to a good school to get the grades or knowledge they needed before higher education, etc.

Capitalism effects every facet of our lives, even in developed countries where we try to spend money to counter it's damages.

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[-] HowManyNimons 11 points 2 months ago

To be fair, it's not just an America problem.

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[-] [email protected] 13 points 2 months ago

Same deal as sexism. Even if you get in, your work will probably be stolen or you will be pushed out.

[-] unreasonabro 11 points 2 months ago

Capitalism is a method for the control of information. If information were given freely, like as in an actually civilized society not full of fucking barbarians, the world would be a much better place.

[-] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago

b b but it breeds innovation!!!!1!1!1

[-] [email protected] 10 points 2 months ago* (last edited 2 months ago)

I feel that innovation flow through me when I go down to the supermarket to pick from my selection of 27 brands of cola based soda, and 39 varieties of plain salted chips.

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[-] Jarix 10 points 2 months ago

This isnt a unique capitalist problem.

This is power dynamics 101.

The capitalism version of this problem is not even the worst version

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[-] [email protected] 9 points 2 months ago

There's a few problems with this. Two I can identify right off the bat:

  1. Just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean you're good at it. I don't want the William Hung of medicine doing my surgery.

  2. By artificially limiting the supply of doctors you are increasing demand and salaries (I agree this seems morally wrong a priori/prima facie, especially for something like health care that is a public good). However when the salaries drop then you reduce incentive for smart people going into the field, which has already been happening in medicine for decades. The top of the class that would've become the brilliant physician in the 20th century is your 21st century finance bro. AKA brain drain. (See also point 1.)

I do agree that it is wrong for people to be unable to pursue careers due to the misfortune of their station of birth. I don't know how to fix it other than funding public education.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

Also, there are mechanisms in place(assuming this is an American post). I know because I'm taking advantage of them.

I'm poor, at a respected university, and about graduate with a Bachelors. Might have spent 3k overall on school. Pell Grant was amazing.

Aint a perfect system, but still works a lot of the time

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[-] RememberTheApollo_ 9 points 2 months ago

They don’t want experts, they want drones and demagogues.

[-] [email protected] 8 points 2 months ago

It's ironic that capitalism is missing out on more efficient workers who could maximize production and profit because of this. Who knows where we would be if we actually helped people pursue their goals regardless of current income?

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this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2024
1142 points (91.9% liked)

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