this post was submitted on 18 Aug 2023
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Baldur's Gate 3

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Baldur’s Gate 3 is a story-rich, party-based RPG set in the universe of Dungeons & Dragons, where your choices shape a tale of fellowship and betrayal, survival and sacrifice, and the lure of absolute power. (Website)

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The co-creator of the Dragon Age franchise has commented on the reaction to one of Baldur’s Gate 3’s main female characters, saying fans “always treated male characters with more forgiveness”.

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[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This encounter was contrasted with the player’s first encounter with Morrigan, the much-loved Dragon Age character. “It does everything right to make you like the character, before showing you her darker side,” Clark said of Morrigan's introduction in Dragon Age: Origins. “I don't think they did this with Lae'zel.” Gaider dismissed this suggestion, saying “it truly does not matter”.

That's the best part. Why would you like a character male or female that is openly hostile to you? You wouldn't. That's the point. She isn't your friend (at least towards the beginning), you simply share a common goal with this githyanki. I wouldn't be more forgiving if she was a guy. She's still being an asshole to me. But it works especially for evil playthroughs as the relationship works totally fine as something that's just transactional in nature.

You know who I couldn't forgive? Alistair. All he needed to do was shut his damn jackass mouth for 10min. Really hard for me not to see him in Gale everytime I talk to him.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I have a soft spot for Lae'zel. I had it before I started learning more about her. Idk, I think early on I was just like this person is literally an interdimensional space pirate who has a culture literally alien to me. It made me more accepting of her.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I view her as more of an inter-dimensional space Nazi. She believes her race is superior to all others and is part of a conquering empire. Non-Gith are automatically considered slaves by her peers.

[–] [email protected] 41 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Forgiving of what? Her dommy mommy sex scenes?

Her adversarial nature? My dudes, she is actually quite tame for a gith and if you play deeper into her story line, you'll discover that and also get her to stop being a bitch to everyone she's first meeting. Can't blame her for being an asshole when she takes orders and worships an evil lich (whom she doesn't even know is an evil lich) that raised her and others of her kind to be unquestioning killing machines.

[–] Crow 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Crow 14 points 1 year ago

It’s a dialogue option when she romances you. I just found it hilarious. Simply one word; yuck.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago
[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Forgiving of what? Her dommy mommy sex scenes?

Not if you're my little boss halfling. She's a fighter with points in intimidation. Lae'zel tried the dom thing on me, and I said "That's not how thing is going to work, you're going to submit to me".

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[–] kromem 33 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lae'zel was my favorite origin character and who I ended up romancing and sticking with through my playthrough.

I wouldn't have expected that going into it, but I found her writing to be probably the most complex and interesting arc out of everyone.

Whereas Shadowheart, who I went into it thinking would be the one I'd want to romance, was insufferable by halfway though and I was regularly wishing she had less relevance to the core plot.

I'm glad Lae'zel wasn't male, and honestly I find the suggestion annoying given that the entire plot around the Githyanki is extremely focused on the matriarchal nature of the society.

More Amazons in our media, please.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Shadowheart and Lae'zel both annoy me and I really use neither if I can help doing so. Granted, I'm still getting to the side quests in Act 1 before moving on, so grain of salt, but they both currently occupy one end of an uninteresting extreme imo — Shadowheart the shrinking little flower that needs saving, Lae'zel the shallow, judgy barbarian I'm shocked to hear would have an arc.

I dislike her because she's unendingly rude and violent for no reason, even when the occasion would go over better if she chose to cool it. If she were male, I'd still hate ~~her~~ him because it's every time he opens his mouth. Nobody likes a dick bag.

As noted in the article, Astarion IS pompous and mean, but the important part is he's snarky instead of outright abusive, is rarely outwardly violent, and does what he does in a way that's funny. I keep him on my team purely to hear him backtalk Wyll and reminisce about hedonism and do not get the sense at any point that he would hit me over the head with a club and drag me into a cave.

If he acted all rough and edgy and broody instead of intentionally looking for amusement via horrifying randos just to see what they do, I'd consider him the world's most boring fanservice.

Anyway, the actual shining gem is Karlach and I'm increasingly in disbelief that I've seen no one singing her praises. I usually do find female characters underwhelmingly written and moments like Karlach are very needed reminders that I'm not some weird misogynist, I just hate bad writing and it's everywhere. I fell INSTANTLY in love with that energy and remain so.

Ultimately, I may not like the one, but I am glad we're able to do Warrior Female now and go all the way with actually making them warriors. More Amazonians in media!

[–] kromem 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

One of the keys to writing a compelling arc is to start somewhere you can juxtapose against with where you end up.

Both of your characterizations of the characters may not remain the same as you play though.

Of course, the cool thing about what Larian did is that whether they do or don't depends a lot on player interactions and choice.

You may have a very shallow Lae'zel by the end of her arc in your game depending on both certain choices and the roll of the dice.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Honestly, I've been putting off the creche because I haven't wanted to deal with her. So knowing she at least has some sort of development beyond that gives me hope

[–] snippyfulcrum 7 points 1 year ago

I won't say I'd consider her my favorite character by any means but I will say after I gave her a chance and actually had conversations with her, had her in my party and did the stuff at the creche she's (in my opinion) got some of the best character growth in the whole game.

Without going into details (and also because it is variable depending on how you go about things with her) she more or less starts out firm in her beliefs before slowly beginning to realize what she thought was the truth of her world ended up wrong and it changes her in a big way.

It's, in my opinion, really well done character growth if you chose to give her a chance.

~~Honestly though Karlach best girl.~~

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[–] melonpunk 32 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Mostly kept away from news about BG3 story because I'm playing it and don't want to be spoiled. Had no idea that there might be "backlash" against Lae'zel. Though I'm not going to read much stock in an article that's just a bunch of tweets compiled together.

Had plenty of RPG characters not to be to my taste in other games, but my complaints usually only come in if there's too many of them within a single game. I kinda want to know there's a range of characters to explore with, shows breadth. Certainly if it were a full palette of whiny brats then I'd probably bounce off the game.

My only complaint so far (and I know there's been posts in this area) is just how fucking horny people seem to be. I'm trying to buddy up with party members and they're taking it as me coming on to them. I feel like I'm walking on egg shells when picking some responses in fear it'll get me shoved into the sex pen with them. I'm also surprised at how fast relationships develop. I'm still in act one and have had 3 or 4 people in my camp express their wishes to bed me. Dudes, we've just met and yer boi has a fucked up STD like wriggler in my eye.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago

Maybe the parasites in your heads want to kiss?

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

The backlash to her seems to mostly be on Twitter, oddly enough. Folks in the Twitter thread were pointing out how it’s just on Twitter and that she’s a favorite on Reddit.

[–] Aqarius 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So, another one of those "author mistakes twitter for real life" articles?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

I see it more as different fan spaces have different vibes. It’s not any different from if someone was a favorite on tumblr but despised on Reddit.

[–] kromem 18 points 1 year ago

I wonder how many of those criticisms have a blue checkmark next to them.

I bet almost all of them are adorned with the blue badge of self-fragility.

[–] JJROKCZ 5 points 1 year ago

Because she’s just as argumentative as your average Redditor and thinks she’s infallible just like your average redditor lol

[–] JJROKCZ 23 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Nah, assholes are assholes, her personality is just so confrontational that I don’t want to deal with it. I don’t think gender has anything do with not wanting every conversation to be a small fight full of insults.

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[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago (2 children)

lae'zel is perfect - well written, well voiced, a bit tanky, adds tension. there's nothing to forgive. boy gamers are notoriously sexist. this is their problem, not larian's.

[–] woodenskewer 4 points 1 year ago

She might be my favorite of the bunch. I'm at a pretty cool part of her story, I won't elaborate on, and I appreciate her abilities to lay waste to those that oppose her.

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[–] CaptPretentious 16 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Oh look, a click bait IGN article! And no one was shocked

No it wouldn't have mattered. She's a single minded, xenophobic , zealot asshole. That wasn't my jam for the first play through. I barely tolerate shadowheart, but she got heals and sacred weapon. I'm a devotion paladin and I will smite their god(s)!

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[–] Floey 12 points 1 year ago

My problem with Lae'zel is that she shares too many major story beats with Shadowheart. But individually they are good characters and we aren't spoiled for choice with 6.5 origin characters and a few more plot relevant companions. Her story works well for a Gith and it's good that we have a Gith companion option with how relevant the illithid are to the plot.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well........I don't think so?

People love Morrigan from DA:O and she's pretty much a jackass. Made me want to pull my hair out at times, but there's a charm in that making a bad girl go soft in the end.

We shouldn't just slap or imply a "sexist" label when people don't like a character or not, although there's always going to be a variance.

Is there a good example or reason they say this or are they just guessing?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Morrigan was hot, that's why people loved her. We even see it in BG3, Shadowheart is as confrontational, especially towards Lae'zel but people are fawning over Shadowheart because she is hot.

But I think a lot of backlash towards Lae comes from people who don't know D&D. They aren't aware of how dangerous Mindflayers really are. And they also aren't aware of Githyanki and their relationship with Mindflayers. If you take these things into consideration the actions of Lae become much more reasonable.

Shadowheart's struggle are much easier to relate to. Which is part of the reason for people siding with her over Lae'zel.

With male characters people are more forgiving because they don't consider a romance option.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

I find Shadowheart way worse than Lizzy.
Though, I think the general statement holds true. This is absolutely not the first time this happens. A big example would be TLoU 1 & 2 with Joel vs Ellie. The sheer amount of Joel apologists that I had to talk with over the internet is immense, but Ellie doing equally shitty things is somehow seen as so much worse. It also shows that people don't even want to bother looking deeper into those characters either. They're just set in their ways & opinions, literally stuck.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Bruh, ~~Bae~~ Lae’zel is what I’d expect if they gave Morrigan from DAO a superiority complex.

Still in Act 1 so I got more to explore, but she is by far my favorite character of the bunch so far along with Astarion.

[–] Lemmylefty 8 points 1 year ago

What do you mean, “if”?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Forgive her for what? Perfectly complementing my Lolth-sworn drow's vibe? She's the shouty armored one and I'm the one who wears a dress to a fight and is scarier when I'm quiet, and together we're cutting a bloody swathe across the Sword Coast and looking great doing it.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Your comment is wonderfully colorful with your descriptions that I wish you would write more about your adventures and expand upon it in an actual D&D session.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago (3 children)

People don't like lae'zel?? She's by far my favorite. Please more strong women who want to fuck me.

My woman friend who I got to play a little co-op was also immediately like "she's hot. I like her", and found shadow heart to be a little whiney.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Right? She’s by far my fave so far. She’s not at all boring.

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[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

She's a hell of a fighter. So what if she worships a lich and wants to step on my testicals because I'm good in battle. We all have our quirks.

[–] AngusOReily 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Late game they also feed you a bunch of strong gith fighter specific gear. Which is a bummer because I respecced her into a Tavern Brawler monk and she just shreds through shit like that. But, like Shadowheart, her story is so central to the plot, so she gets a ton of support and development. Gale is also pretty closely linked to the main plot, but Astarion and Wyll sort of aren't. Karlach is but I think her rewrite trimmed out on content (unless I'm missing something major in the last like 3 quests I have left in Act 3, which is possible).

I'd say that in terms of importance to the overall story, it's Tav, then Lae'zel, then Shadowheart. Lae'zel just has key story elements in every act that are personal to her, be it mind flayer or githyanki specific business. Shart's Act 3 is a little less central, but she's essentially the star of Act 2.

All that's a long way of saying, she has an interesting arc and a lot of race specific gear support to help her shine mechanically. More people need you give her a chance, even in good playthroughs, if they haven't already. I had her benched all act 1 as a very good paladin, then added her when we got to the creche stuff and never looked back.

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[–] Sigh_Bafanada 7 points 1 year ago (4 children)

The only reason why I don't use Lae'zel is because Karlach exists and she's a goddess (who also fills a similar party niche)

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Lae’zel has been benched since I got Karlach. Karlach just hits so, so much harder and has so, so many hit points.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

My first play-through I one-shotted Karlach while she was moping. Didn’t catch on she was a party member until later.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well, you get to keep the OG Wyll appearance in that case!

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[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I love my girl squad! Lae’zel and Karlach are my BFF’s. Shadowheart just finally got back in my good graces and is finally allowed to come away from camp. Asterion is on a time-out. Ugh. Gale is Gale.

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[–] kaffiene 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I don't like her, but I used her a lot. I hate Astarian so much that he's never in my party. A lot of the npcs have unlikable elements

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Astarion I absolutely cannot stand either.

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