this post was submitted on 03 Aug 2023
268 points (94.7% liked)

World News

37322 readers
3658 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.


Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]


Recommendations

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

The latest numbers on Japanese population make for a dismal reading — the number of people who died in 2022 (1.56 million) was roughly twice as big as the number of newborn children (771,000). Based on residency registrations, the country's Internal Ministry estimates a total population loss of some 800,000 last year. This is the largest total drop in population since comparable statistics were first collated in 1968.

Japan now has 122.4 million nationals, down from a peak of over 128 million some 15 years ago.

But the issue of Japan's shrinking population goes much further into the past. Since the 1990s, successive Japanese governments have been aware that the population would start to decline and tried to offer solutions. And yet, the speed of the contraction has caught even the experts by surprise. In 2017, for example, the Tokyo-based National Institute of Population and Social Security Research forecast that the annual number of births would not fall below the 800,000 threshold until 2030.

With the news on Japan's population decline growing ever more grim, the government of Prime Minister Fumio Kishida has announced a series of efforts to encourage more people to have children.

Japan ‘on the brink’

In January, Kishida warned that the nation is "on the brink" of a crisis and that his government would spend around 20 trillion yen (around €128 billion, $140 billion) on measures to support young couples who wish to have more children. This corresponds to around 4% of Japan's GDP, and is nearly double the amount that the government had earmarked for the same goal in fiscal 2021.

The prime minister also set up a panel to devise ways to spend the extra funds. He also hosted an event in Tokyo in late July to mark the launch of a nationwide campaign to support children and families. The government has agreed on increasing child allowances and putting in additional effort to eradicate child poverty and abuse. New fathers will also be encouraged to take paternity leave and additional funding will go into pre-school facilities so that working parents are able to return to work. Parents will also get greater tax breaks.

Kishida said he aims to win the support of society for children and parents.

"We hope that a social circle friendly to child-rearing will spread nationwide," he said at the launch event.

Critics, however, are not entirely convinced by the latest proposals. They warn that the previous government had also tried to use spending to encourage a baby boom, but Japanese society has failed to respond.

The population is rapidly aging, and the number of people over 65 is already at close to 30% in Japan. Japan's neighbors China and South Korea are facing similar troubles, and the number of senior citizens is expected to continue climbing in the next three decades.

Will funding be effective?

"The government is focusing very much on the economic aspect and while the budget they are allocating to the problem is very large and it sounds positive, we will have to see whether it can truly be effective," said Masataka Nakagawa, senior researcher with the National Institute of Population and Social Security Research.

Nakagawa agreed that the latest population statistics were worrying, but warned there are other factors that need to be considered, such as the falling number of marriages. People in Japan are typically getting married later in life and opting to have fewer children, primarily a result of financial pressures, he said.

Chisato Kitanaka, an associate professor of sociology at Hiroshima University, said governments have failed to devise effective policies to solve the population problem, despite knowing that a decline was inevitable.

"There have long been a lot of hurdles for young people who want to have children to overcome," she told DW. Those include financial and educational concerns, she said, but arguably the biggest problem is social attitudes.

"In Japan, having a child means that a couple has to get married," she said. "Only 2% of children are born out of wedlock in Japan, but other countries take a far more 'flexible' approach to the concept of a family."

"This is what is considered socially acceptable here and that makes raising a child as a single mother difficult because she has to work and earn money, while at the same time she is singled out by society," she added.

More foreigners in Japan

Kitanaka believes the government should dramatically increase welfare payments to families to help them raise their children and reduce the substantial costs of education, particularly at the tertiary level.

While looking into the population statistics, Japanese officials also found that nearly 3 million foreign residents were living in Japan, up by more than 289,000, or over 10%, from the previous year. The increase puts the number of foreigners in the Asian country at record high.

And yet, many Japanese are unwilling to seriously contemplate large-scale immigration as a way to solve Japan's population problem and provide a stable supply of workers.

"It is difficult," Kitanaka admitted. "There are clearly more foreign residents of Japan now but we as a society are not really thinking about it as a long-term issue. And there are many in Japan who are still not ready to accept foreigners. We need to discuss the sort of Japan that we want to live in for the future."

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 110 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Maybe if they'd fix their work culture this wouldn't be as big of an issue.

[–] Empyreus 62 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It really is wild to me that the government isn't working to put restrictions on working hours. It seems that focusing on the benefits of having children, not focusing on building more marriages seems to be a miss from the government.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] Alteon 32 points 11 months ago

The old guard refuses to change anything. Nothing will change in that country until the leaders either change or pass on. Culture and Tradition is so important in the business setting that it's overbearing and fundamentally inhibitive to social progress. The government can't do anything about unless the businesses change....and they won't.

[–] MajesticSloth 14 points 11 months ago

That is always my first thought when this topic comes up. Often not just with Japan. It is a problem in many countries.

[–] [email protected] 109 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

I'm from Tokyo, so I'm saying this as someone with a direct stake in the matter, but is this really a problem? The Earth is on fire right now, the oceans are literally boiling, it is face-melting hot here. The consequences of the period of unsustainable growth are finally coming to pass. There was a report yesterday saying we'd passed the yearly mark for what the planet can provide, and we'd need 1.7 Earths now to meet everyone's needs. So maybe naturally reducing the population isn't such a bad thing.

[–] PyroNeurosis 26 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Governments by and large occupy a mindspace that is "individuals must be subjugated for the needs community", but not "we must subjugate ourselves for the needs of the planet."

load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It's only a problem in the near term as those of us in middle age are going to face increasing taxes and cuts of social programs to support the older folks. I plan on retiring here (Japan). I agree we're way over-populated here for the resources we have and think it should decline, but it's going to be rough.

I think more remote work or companies moving out of Tokyo could help things as it would make getting into daycare and such easier for families with kids, but I don't see that happening.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (3 replies)
[–] AgentGoldfish 83 points 11 months ago (8 children)

I taught English in Japan (JET) for one year, and at the end I said what a lot of people say: I'd love to visit, but I'm never going to work here again.

The work culture in Japan is fucked. The fact that the amount of time you spend at work, not your actual output, determines how "productive" you are is so fucking stupid. I worked my contract hours and I was seen as lazy. Despite the fact that everything I was asked to do was always done and done well, the fact that I didn't come in 2 hours early and nap at my desk meant I was lazy. Add onto that the fact that I only got a (generous for Japan) 15 days of nenkyuu (paid days off), which you can't actually use because what happens if you get sick. Sick leave exists, but does it? Does it really? The one time I tried to use it, I was told "it'd be better for everyone if you didn't", and then had to use my nenkyuu anyway.

And that was me working a pretty privileged position! If I was coming from Vietnam to work in a retirement home, I'm sure the working conditions would be far worse with the threat of deportation looming over my head. Immigration is a band aid at best. As soon as immigrants have the opportunity to move somewhere better, they will of course take that.

In contrast, I now live in the Netherlands, which shockingly has some of the least generous child benefits in the EU. And yet, we get about 100€/month from the government in support, plus about 50% the cost of childcare paid for. My wife gets 4 months of maternity leave at full pay (I only get 5 days which is super fucked), with up to 3 years at 60% pay with a guarantee of her job being there when she gets back. We each have 25+ days off a year, which are actually used for days off, if the kid gets sick, we can use sick leave to care for it, and sick leave is unlimited. Also, healthcare for children is 100% paid by the government. And with all of that, we're barely in a position to be able to consider having children.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 11 months ago

I have to agree here. I was reading down this waiting for some sort of address of the work culture but its just not there. If Japan truely believes they can solve their population problem by throwing money at it the country is doomed.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 66 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

For Japan, you could encourage growth in the economy again, and encourage population growth by simply requiring companies to give ample vacation time, and require people to use said vacation time.

It's fucking ridiculous how much time Japanese people are forced to work. They basically spend the entire day at the office, sometimes the entire night with staff because companies force staff into not mandatory but totally mandatory afterwork drinking parties, and by the time people get back to their tiny homes and apartments, they might get a Sunday off to sleep off the exhaustion, then it's back into the office.

Many Japanese youth never even see their father, meanwhile they themselves are relentlessly robbed of their time by schools, after school clubs, cram schools, English Schools, test prep, and stupid amounts of homework they're expected to finish on top of that. Many of my students are on summer holiday, but are just as busy as school time thanks to all the homework they're saddled with and the clubs and jukus certainly don't let up for summer.

Nobody respects other people's free time here, thus people don't have the energy to do anything outside of their daily cycle, let alone fuck. Why buy a game console, TV, or a nice car when you never have time to enjoy it. Why go to Okinawa, or Fukuoka or Hokkaido when you're only going to have 3 days tops to enjoy it, and if you do somehow get a week to blow, why not take the dream trip to Hawaii, and spend your money out of the country.

Japanese population and economic troubles ultimately cycle back to the end of free time that the miracle period encouraged, and the bubble economy drove into overdrive. They have tried everything but taken this issue seriously, and the only thing they've come close to resembling addressing this is creating more national holidays, which are always way off from any vacation period, and many companies try to get out of giving time off, ands those that can't expect workers to make all the time up the day after.

They are literally working themselves to death here.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (7 children)

I'm from Tokyo and have been working 20+ years, the idea that all Japanese work themselves to death is meme nowadays. Yes, it was like that before, and there are still a few companies like that now, but it's not representative of the whole anymore. We do get vacations. There are 16 public holidays a year, 10 vacation days required by law with an extra day for each year of service at the company, and the government will fine companies that don't force their employees to use at least half of them every year.

"Overtime" is also a bit of a joke. The average salaryman does probably 2 hours real work every day. The rest is just trying to look busy while dicking around on facebook. And attitudes about that are slowly changing too. I rarely see anyone younger than 35 hang around the office late to look busy anymore, they know there's no point because it's not going to get you a raise or a promotion anyways.

[–] flake 13 points 11 months ago

I’m also in Tokyo and happy to say that I’ve seen the culture of overtime work changing even over the last 5 years. Young people don’t want to do it. Companies that don’t allow it are more loved by the people https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-07-12/itochu-overtime-ban-offers-solutions-for-japan-birthrate-decline

And there’s also the rise of remote/hybrid/flex work that many people don’t want to go back from

Japan is changing and I’m very optimistic about its future!

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] Chainweasel 59 points 11 months ago (10 children)

What good could possibly come from unlimited population growth?
From 1973 to 2023 the world population doubled. If that trend continues, doubling every 50 years, by the year 2123 there will be 32 Billion people on Earth.
We can't even house and feed the 8 billion we have now, not to mention the ecological damage that would be inevitable due to expansion and urbanization.
Even if we just double the current population to 16 billion people 100 years from now it won't be sustainable. We need to find a new system that isn't reliant on the next generation being bigger than the previous generation because we're less than a century from it collapsing anyway. We have finite space on this planet and infinite growth will fill that up very quickly.

[–] sheogorath 28 points 11 months ago (4 children)

The main problem in Japan is the birth rate basically doesn't even replenish the outgoing population. Japan also have one of the longest life expectancy. Tell me how can you take care of 10 seniors in a retirement home if there's only 1 working age person to take care of them?

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 25 points 11 months ago (5 children)

We can house and feed everyone, but we don't because it is not profitable to do so. Destroying the planet by selling and using fossil fuels makes a lot more money.

load more comments (5 replies)
load more comments (7 replies)
[–] [email protected] 48 points 11 months ago (4 children)

Why do these people always want to promote unlimited growth? Oh wait, higher profits

[–] Onfire 24 points 11 months ago (1 children)

The problem with Japan right now is that it's in and heading toward decline. They can't even sustain. Wage are low, price are high. They seriously need to relax on the immigration policy.

[–] sheogorath 9 points 11 months ago (2 children)

Yep, with 0.8 birth rate there's no way to sustain the population. IIRC you need to have a birth rate of 2.1 to maintain the population.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] fluxion 14 points 11 months ago (3 children)

It seems stupid to be concerned with maintaining growth given the abysmal outlook of the sustainability of human society if it continues on it's current course.

But social/medical security for the elderly is also funded by workers, so I can see why population decline warrants concern.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It just seems to me that we should be focusing on things like automation and healthcare to actually solve the problem rather than trying to brute force it by increasing population everywhere. That's just not sustainable in the long term, for us nor the planet. But I am not an expert on this subject

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 43 points 11 months ago (10 children)

Japans attitude to foreigners who decide to try and live there isn't helping this problem either.

load more comments (10 replies)
[–] Hazdaz 34 points 11 months ago (5 children)

A lot can be done, but their culture and traditions simply won't allow it.

They seem to rather die off as a nation rather than alter their thinking. It's sad to see, but at the same time that stubbornness to change is the most Japanese thing ever. Their culture revolves around tradition and they rather keep those traditions than open their country up to fresh, new ideas and people.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] AnyProgressIsGood 32 points 11 months ago (2 children)

It's not a problem. The system requireing growth is the problem

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 27 points 11 months ago

Endless growth is not possible within a finite system. Population dips are inevitable and should be celebrated and accounted for.

[–] Vub 26 points 11 months ago (25 children)

Japan being a super racist country will now lead to their old ones rotting away without any care or help, and their social security system falling apart for the rest.

Apart from that a decreasing population is 100% positive for the planet. Especially in the case of such a wasteful and polluting country per capita like Japan.

load more comments (25 replies)
[–] ecoboy 24 points 11 months ago

It's too expensive to have a kid in Japan. There aren't enough childcare to take care of the kids so one parent usually ends up staying home, making household income low.

Japan can't fix this by having bandage solutions like paying couples to have children, or subsidizing deliveries or schools. Yes, they help, but only in the short term. Prospective parents will think about long term prospects and opportunity cost in having kids. Japan has change the whole system to make it work for couples to have kids.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Can’t force people to have kids. When the environment simply can’t support a population, it stops growing. It’s in basic biology. People can’t afford it anymore, we’re at a limit.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] korobuhito 22 points 11 months ago (20 children)

This problem will fix itself once all these geriatric morons die off. That goes for basically all problems in the whole world.

[–] ManosTheHandsOfFate 19 points 11 months ago

New geriatric morons are created daily.

load more comments (19 replies)
[–] Etterra 18 points 11 months ago (3 children)

I'll say it again. Pay people to have kids. A lot. Include healthcare. It's stupidly expensive to raise a kid in a developed nation and if you want to raise the birthrate you're gonna have to offset the costs. Especially since we live in a capitalist hell where must people live paycheck-to-paycheck.

[–] stevedidWHAT 15 points 11 months ago (6 children)

Or just you know improve living conditions and people will naturally want to have kids

load more comments (6 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)

Why would we want to stop population decline when the world is already overpopulated?

[–] [email protected] 16 points 11 months ago (4 children)

We don't have an overpopulation problem. We have with resources being hoarded by a small handful of billionaires.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 11 months ago

I walk around the supermarket. Look at the amount of plastic. Then multiply that by all supermarkets in the world. We have many problems. Many.

[–] electrogamerman 11 points 11 months ago (10 children)

Yes, we have an overpopulation problem. This has nothing to do with resources being hoarded by a small handful of billionaires. I mean thats a problem, but that's and additional problem to overpopulation.

We cant continue generating trash the way we do, nor consuming earth resources, generating toxic gases. We are destroying the earth and populating the earth more is just going to accelerate that.

load more comments (10 replies)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] PumpkinSkink 14 points 11 months ago (6 children)

I mean realistically the most obvious thing to me is that something has to be done to make the prospect of having children less daunting. I can't speak to Japan, but for my friends here, in our early 30s, we're only just now getting to a place where moving out of our parents/a 5 person roommate situation is feasible. Many of us don't have long-term romantic prospects, and work all the fucking time. Ok top of that, having a kid just sounds terrifying. The cost, and amount of effort needed to see a kid not have a terrible life is daunting (I'm a teacher. Just imaging the amount of effort I, as a parent, would need to put in to have a average kid succeed in a school environment is horrifying)

I imagine a real intervention for this sort of thing looks like less work; good, free child care; our cities building culturally relevant community spaces that people actually want to go to outside of the internet; and creating a culture of community-oriented sharing of the responsibilities of caring for children. In short, we'd need to make our society one that's less hostile to having kids. That seems pretty obvious, and from my understanding, a lot of these factors are worse in Japan than in the US.

[–] voluble 10 points 11 months ago

we’d need to make our society one that’s less hostile to having kids

You allude to some of this, but in addition, and as a precondition, we need to make our society one that's less hostile to the people that currently exist in it.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] [email protected] 11 points 11 months ago (3 children)

Busting nuts in Japanese ladies, probably.

[–] RaoulDook 11 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)
load more comments (2 replies)
[–] [email protected] 10 points 11 months ago (1 children)

It's not hard to move to Japan. It's hard to move to Japan and earn a decent wage. I am in a high earning career when working for US companies. If I were to do the exact same job in Tokyo, I would earn less than half of my current base pay, no bonus or stock options. I know this because I was living there and interviewing a lot.. Finding work was not hard. Taking that kind of pay cut would be stupid.

The main jobs that the Japanese are happy to allow foreigners to have is mostly around teaching English. I dated many English teachers when I was there and the general consensus was that if you had a working face, you could teach English. Anyone who is unemployable in their home country can move to Japan to teach English. The catch is that you're going to earn $15-20k per year.

I deeply love living there and miss it daily but it's just not a good deal in the global labor market. If they made a remote worker visa though, I would be the first person in line to apply for it.

load more comments (1 replies)
load more comments
view more: next ›