No Stupid Questions

Lots of discussion points here, but let me address two or three in particular:

blatant Nazism hurts their legitimacy in the eyes of the public

Nope. No, it really doesn't. Trump was never a legitimate contender from his opponents' perspective (due to dirty foreign money) and his true believers would stand buy him as he ate a live baby on TV.

Take a look at some approval polls that show he still has significant support from Americans. (Likewise with Musk, likewise with DOGE.)

Second point: It doesn't matter. He doesn't NEED legitimacy or approval any more. He's in power, Musk is at his right hand, and the two of them are acting with complete impunity. Seriously, they should both be hauled off in chains and tried for treason, not to mention hate crimes and hundreds of less-sexy crimes. But they're not, and so it just doesn't fucking matter.

Thirdly, where did it come from? We're discovering now that the Christian hard-right has been carefully staging this for HALF A CENTURY! Since not long after Roe v. Wade, they have been laying the groundwork for what Project 2025 is carrying out right now: A ruthless coup backed by religious extremists and foreign opponents. The Heritage Foundation was founded in 1973. PNAC was founded in 1997. And there are more.

Fundamentally, Trump's first term was to see how much they could get away with. When they lost the 2020 election, the Nazis spent four years purging the party of unfaithful (i.e. people with either thoughts or morals, or maybe even both), then won last year, and were finally able to remove their veil: The government no longer needs the will of the people to execute their extremist plans.

It has always been there, but until Trump’s first term the Nazis were at least cautious about things. They were afraid to openly and publicly spout their BS, unless they were in large groups. Because they knew that if they held up swastika signs on the street corner, that they’d very quickly get punched in the mouth.

But Trump changed that. Depending on how old you are, you may remember the “he tells it like it is/he’s not afraid to say what’s really on his mind” types of support for Trump during his first term. What a lot of those people were really saying is “he makes me feel empowered to say what’s is on my mind.” And what was on their mind was white supremacy and nazism. When the highest office in the land is tacitly (and sometimes directly) supporting white supremacists, they feel emboldened. And when they feel emboldened, they escalate.

What used to be whispered racist jokes escalated into passive racism. What used to be passive racism escalated into active racism. What used to be active racism escalated into openly hostile racism. And what used to be openly hostile racism escalated into nazism.

And the issue is that Trump/Musk have given Nazis a forum to meet other Nazis. Before, being a Nazi was a fairly lonely hobby. Finding other Nazis carried a lot of risk, because it meant potentially exposing yourself and getting your life ruined. But with Musk buying Xitter, Trump building Truth Social, etc… Yeah, suddenly the Nazis felt empowered to actually start talking to each other. The same way flat earthers used to just be your crazy uncle who smoked too much in his garage. But now that crazy uncle is part of a Flat Earth Society that regularly does large “experiments” to try and prove the earth is flat. By finding a forum to connect with other like-minded individuals, people feel emboldened as their views feel more normalized.

Genuinely, 4chan (Elon uses 4chan terms a lot), then instagram, facebook, discord, and foreign influence campaigns. I barely use social media, seems harmful.

I know people who fall into these rabbit holes. Super sad.

There have always been Nazis in America, even during WW2. Listen to Rachel Maddow's podcast "ultra" to hear about how close they came to a takeover of the US way back then. They never went away, they just went low profile for a while.

It’s always been there. Trump just told them it’s ok to be nazi in public? He’ll protect them. Because he is a damn nazi.

an important historical note is that the Nazis drew a lot of their ideology and argumentation from the American eugenics movement, which has been a major undercurrent in America since the early 1900s and never went away

It's been fairly blatant for a while now. The seig heil is coming out now that they feel they've won. The goal is for the US to fall this time.

It's always been there, it's just now coming to the surface.

Like shingles

They're looking for yes-men, who will be loyal to them in even the worst possible situations. Heiling is just a test to weed out anyone else.

Also, the heiling gesture came a little too natural to them.

it's a combo of trolling and attention seeking. "there's no such thing as bad press" and all that.

we should point it out, condemn it, but not engage in arguments with them about what is and isn't a sig heil.

and when they pop up in other places trying to talk about other stuff, just bring up the fact that they threw a Nazi salute from time to time.

the most important thing is to focus on their evil policies and actions. but we can't forget their performative evil.

MAGA has always been run by nazis; the blatancy came from winning the last election.

It begins by realizing that economics is also politics. The US ran out of indigenous peoples and lands to exploit, so it is turning inwards.

There are many books one could recommend. But an easy one to understand is: Irregular Army: How the US Military Recruited Neo-Nazis, Gang Members, and Criminals to Fight the War on Terror, this book was published in 2012. Whatever an empire perfects to crush other people, always sooner or later is used internally.

It came from LIBERALS who demanded that we protect the free speech of Nazis while they were building their death camps.

It's not a new thing, and while I don't think it can be easily distilled into a social media reply. I'll do my best.

This has been a 40-year process, beginning with Ronald Reagan and continuing incrementally with every president since, including Obama unironically. (Remember how he crushed Occupy and ignored Ferguson and legalized torture on New Years Day?) It's become stronger as people have become poorer and more willing to not give a shit about the quality of our country's leadership. Now every person not only has personal biases, but a computer in their pocket constantly telling them everything they think is correct and actively angering them. Hitler would have creamed himself at the thought of being able to dictate social media algorithms.

If people can't afford to feed their kids or see a doctor, they're not going to give a shit about fascism, and no matter who we elect, most people can't afford to see a doctor and adequately feed their kids.

It's going to be worse now than it had to be. In 2016 people were willing to punch Nazis. Now, you can render a Nazi salute twice, in the seat of government, in front of the entire Democratic leadership... and they will fucking clap and smile.

It''s because the overall intent is not to unify the country under one government. It's to keep the America fighting with itself so that it can't interfere in Russian, Saudi and Chinese ambitions for an autocratic oligarchy. It's in their best interests if America descends into the worst version of fascism that the world can dream up, and Trump's GOP is entirely on their payroll.

Any potential positive government action by the GOP for the American people runs contrary to those goals, so they've turned to the tactics of fear and intimidation to maintain their hold on the population. Each public nazi salute is intentional, designed to strike fear and controversy into the hearts of the citizenry and publicly tarnish America's image on the world stage.

Look at how Trump ran on inflation, but the only actions he's taken have been to attack people's livelihood or erode trust in federal and state institutions. He's literally dismantling the federal government from the inside, but all anyone wants to talk about is the nazi salutes.

This is an intentional distraction.

This sort of thing doesn't work in a strong democracy with an un-compromised media, but our democracy has been hollowed out by the cancer of Citizen's United, rendering the power of a citizen's vote near worthless, and by the likely election fraud performed by Musk. So they're gloating and glorifying the symbol as a sign that no one can stop them.

See, the people in charge right now don't care if the US collapses. They WANT it to. America has been the symbol of democratic freedom for the entire world. With the US abandoning that fight, there's no real geopolitical power strong enough to take its place.

Which is exactly what Russia, China, and the Saudis want.

The fact that the salute is so offensive, they did it so blatantly, and their denial was so disingenuous is the point. It's a demonstration of power. They can do a Nazi salute and their opponents can't punish them. They can deny that they did a Nazi salute and their opponents can't control the narrative. If they did something more subtle, then people might think that they weren't facing any consequences because their opponents were giving them the benefit of the doubt. With the Nazi salute there is no doubt. The only explanation for why they aren't facing any consequences is that their opponents are powerless.

"suddenly"

Fascism shouldn't be thought of as a static "thing" or an object of ideology. Peoples beliefs come from their environment. We are so individualized as a society that often we as progressives take "personal responsibility" too far, we buy the premise implicitly without realizing there are flaws with thinking in this way. Every logical system has flaws and contradictions, its proven mathematically though I think some systems are more rigorous and based on evidence.

GWF Hegel's philosophy of Right was written in 1820, and influenced political thought ever since. Liberalism was still in it's revolutionary phase and theories about it were still fairly new, the Wealth of Nations was written just 50 years before, and Karl Marx was like two when it was released, although it would serve as the basis for much of his work analyzing the hidden relationships of Capital, and ethical political philosophy on the whole.

The book is the closest I think someone can honestly get to an actual "horseshoe theory" because not only did it influence the left but it also influenced the far right. Hegel, using the works of other great liberal philosophers such as Locke and Kant, who Hegel was always working to surpass, applied his dialectical philosophical methods to the writings of liberalism.

What he discovered was a natural tendency toward what we would calll fascism. Like he prefigured fascism by 100 years. He wasn't a fascist, there was no such thing. He was just exploring the ideas of this revolutionary philosophy, one that purported to liberate the mind, body and spirit, and discovered the oppressive seeds which might grow into something quite different.

This isn't to call liberals fascists, I'm a communist and 20th century communism had a lot of problems, to put it mildly. I would say confidently that progressive liberals are not crypto fash, in fact the term "progressive" is a typically left-Hegelian ideal, in that it describes human progress and development as the subject of history. Instead it challenges the idea of the liberatory nature of private property, a key component of liberal thought. Of course this is all depending how you look at it, right-Hegelians see this same formulation as proof of the inevitability of their ideas and justification for their actions.

You're getting a lot of different opinions about this stuff so I'm trying to make sort of a different point about philosophy, history and action. Other reading for a deep dive on fascism is the essay Ur Fascism by Umberto Eco (great empirical analysis, but the least scientific IMO), Trotsky's pamphlet Fascism: What it is and How to Fight It, and HA Roy's Fasism, Its Philosophy, Professions and Practice.

In a way, fascism has always been there below the surface, informally shifting the sands of history until it was formalized in the early 20th century. I don't think you can have a society based on private property without some elements of fascism somewhere. Mostly "western democracies" will outsource their extreme cruelty to other countries where it doesn't affect their citizens.

But in summary, Fascism is the realization of the contradictions inherent in liberal ideology, its liberalism turned inside-out, with all its appearances of justice and freedom cut away, leaving only the logic of expansion and domination that most liberal democracies do their best to hide. This is how fascists are able to hide in our society, their individual beliefs are not completely unpalatable to centrists and conservatives who have also started to dispense with justice and freedom in the interest of national greatness. Its what makes their beliefs so malleable, and its also why liberals have such a hard time defining it. But fascism isn't an individual's beliefs, if it was it would be just regular bog-standard chauvinism. Fascism is a mass movement which will use charismatic leaders amenable to their politics to rally the masses.

In our society, the middle classes are the "battery" for fascism. Middle classes are constantly under attack under capitalism and the individuals often feel this and become paranoid (doomsday prepping, etc.,) and this paranoia and real social pressure to produce or be wiped out, the fear from the constant threat of precarity and uncertainty fits hand in glove with the aims and means of fascists.

They have more power than ever.

Even Pence wasn't this stupid, but Vance certainly is.

They've been doing Zeig Heils for years.

I wish I could find the documentary, about a woman who dated some alt right weirdo and he started taking her to like Turning Point USA meetings and other groups meetings and she describes how the first time she did Zeig Heils, and they just did this shit like it was normal. She describes going to a book burning, thinking it was a joke, and then it was like an actual book burning.

It's all nudge nudge wink wink. They're doing Nazi salute because they are Nazis.

Edit: Believe the documentary is called "White Right: Meeting the Enemy." Available here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ0rhh5mbnA

Nazis are a symbol of power and authority for the far right the same way every international dictator has used hilters style of government to rule and oppress. They aspire to build a country similar to the one of the Nazis. Elements of this include: "christian" values, centralisation of power, uniting of the country, removal of "impures" (trans people).

It's always been there; they just stopped even attempting to hide it (even though they never had it very well to begin with).

Plenty of answers here but I don't think anyone has answered this part:

Surely they would have a much easier time pushing their rhetoric and establishing their agenda by keeping a purposeful distance from that sort of indefensible imagery and symbolism.

So here's my take ...

Musk did the sig heil as a fuck you to everyone that doesn't like him. That's it.

They just won the election by basically lying, ignoring, and playing for time. They can literally do whatever the fuck they like for the next n years with impunity.

Imagine if Harris had won and in her victory speech said something like "Don't worry Don, I'll make sure they give you diapers in jail." It would've been a low blow but we would've loved her for it because it's poking fun at the conservatives for no other reason than to stir them up.

I think there's another, longer conversation to be had about why racism (and by extension nazism) resonates with voters in 2025, but I'm too weary for that I think.

My theory is that they try to push the line on what is acceptable. For example, if you want something say you want 11 but what is acceptable is between 1 and 10. Then an 11 is not possible. But if you normalize 15 and keep pushing that, then 11 doesn't seem so unreasonable after a while.

I see this being done constantly. Say that your plan is to do something extreme (take Canada), everyone panics and then get what you actually wanted. If nobody reacts, do the extreme thing.

It’s funny, the posters over at r/conservative truly believe they aren’t nazis and say thing like why is the left so violent, you do anything and they call you a nazi etc etc.

Crazy they can’t see the wood for the trees. Maybe they should have a bit of introspection, like maybe look in to why everyone calls the leaders and followers nazis…

Ironic coming from the “sheeple” crowd.

What you're seeing is the end of Truth.

Especially in the face of AI generated photos, we're dealing with a future where the youth can easily be misled about what actually happened in the past, or even in the current moment. There is very much an upswing of young people questioning established narratives of the past, often under the guise of "well you weren't there, how do you know for sure?"

Reality is perception, and they are busy managing reality to deny any perception of Nazi behavior.

It's why Musk especially lies so fluidly and easily in the face of hard evidence.

It's all perception management, and as long as they keep talking and keep repeating the same lies, a significant number of people will believe them.

Musk still claims it wasn't a Nazi salute, and a significant number of people believe him. It's kind of like Trump's statement that he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue and not lose any support. It's all attack, never back down, never admit fault.

EDIT: It's also Bannon's "flood the zone with shit" strategy at work, too. We've been in an Attention Economy for a long time now (at least since 2007 when the iPhone put a screen in everyone's pocket), and they know people's attention is limited, so they work to force themselves into people's limited time and attention spans. If your message is the only one they have time to hear, they'll probably be more likely to consider yours true. This, for example, is why Musk forced himself into everyone's Twitter feeds, he's force feeding himself the limited attention of millions.