this post was submitted on 30 Dec 2024
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I was perplexed by the question. What's the difference? They explained: "Should I tiptoe and watch my manners around you or be blunt? Flirtatious or chill? Brag about my sexual conquests or talk about our feelings? When you're sad, do I hug you and buy you ice cream or do we go grab some beers? Should I wonder if we'll ever hook up?"

I'm not sure if I'm more appalled or confused by this mindset. I thought everyone treated their friends the same regardless of their gender identity. Is this just a fringe case of toxic masculinity, or is this really how the average cis person sees the world?

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[–] [email protected] 12 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I mean, I exhibit those same differences in behavior, it's just that it's based on the person and not their gender. Some of my friends and I flirt, knowing we don't actually mean anything by it. Some want to hear my TMI stories and knowledge. Some would be incredibly uncomfortable with that. Some of my friends come to me with problems, wanting solutions, and some just want to talk about the problem. Some of these things are more likely to fall one way or the other based on gender, but everyone's different and treating you in stuff like this based on your gender instead of you is wack.

[–] skeezix 1 points 6 days ago

You mean that?

[–] Nuke_the_whales 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

You're being a bit too sensitive I think. And also what's with cis bashing? I'm bisexual but I have trans friends who I would have similar questions for. They would never be offended by these questions or look for the malice in them. Why must you look at it maliciously because the person asking is cis (or you just assume they are cause they haven't told you otherwise, like people do with me).

Simply existing gets you labeled with toxic masculinity these days. I wish the term would die because it's been so bastardized that everyone uses it for anything they don't like about men. Use the term toxic femininity though and you get crucified

[–] bluebadoo 2 points 6 days ago

I think the whole “should I think about fucking you” part is pretty toxic if it’s coming from the mouth of a person you thought was your friend. Yeah, OP makes a generalization about cis people that doesn’t hold water but ultimately all the questions posed leave zero room for any ambiguity that the friend in question needs them to be either a “man” or “woman” in gender which frankly is a poor view on gender. What if they transitioned to non-binary? The friend in question is treating OP like a whole new entity that needs to be reassigned rather than a human who is making subtle adjustments to their social role.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

We live in a cisheteronormative society in which, yes, absolutely, the way someone's gender is perceived impacts how people interact with them.

I (trans man) generally don't treat my friends too differently based on gender, but there are definitely some differences between my relationships with women and my relationships with men. When I hang out with other guys, there's a lot more "dude", "man", "bud" in conversations (obviously). When I hang out with women, conversations about feelings and personal issues are more common, and so are hugs/embraces. This is pretty much entirely "code switching" for me, and not a case of me imposing that this is how relationships with a certain gender should work.

I should point out, though, that this is not 100% based on gender and gender only. It's largely about the personality, and we live in a world in which there is a strong correlation between gender identity and personality traits (see: gender roles and stereotypes), and so gender can often (but not always) act as a shorthand for that. As a counterexample, someone I know is an effeminate (cis) guy, and I'd say that our conversations and interactions feel more like the ones I'm used to with women.

Your question's made me curious; you appear to be binary trans (please correct me if I am mistaken!) Prior to making this post and having this discussion, what had the concept of passing meant to you? Was it purely about automatically being referred to with the right pronouns and terms (son/brother/etc) without having to say anything? Or was there anything more to it?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Passing to me is about looking in the mirror and seeing my outside match my inside. That is, rugged and masculine. It is nice that people automatically call me "he" but I very often miss the way that people treated me before transitioning - they were just nicer.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 days ago

People like women more than men in general, and are more comfortable interacting with women. That's why service positions selectively hire more women and effeminate men.

[–] LovableSidekick 4 points 5 days ago

I think most people, both male and female, tend to act differently around men and around women, and that this comes from a lifetime of cultural conditioning. It's definitely not limited to male behavior, and frankly, associating it with "toxic masculinity" seems like the same mindset.

[–] bluebadoo 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It sounds like this person thinks your gender is your entire personality, and that by transitioning gender you are becoming an entirely new person. I think it’s normal that they turn to stereotypes and binaries to try and understand something they are unfamiliar with though. The “will we ever hook up” would absolutely throw me off if a friend I trusted said that, and that’s a whole thing to digest alone.

I’ll refrain from giving advice because it wasn’t asked for, but unfortunately yes. Lots of cis people need the boxes and stereotypes in order to interact with others in the “socially correct” way rather than making those determinations on a person by person basis. I think it’s part of the cisheteronorm standard that is still said quietly rather than out loud.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I left out some context as the post was getting a bit wordy already: I transitioned long ago, I "pass" incredibly well, and my friend has always known me as a (presumably) cis man. His question was coming from "I've never known a trans person and don't know what I'm supposed to do."

[–] captainlezbian 3 points 5 days ago (1 children)

In that case, is the only thing stopping him from hitting on guys his identity as straight?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Yeah, I'm confused by that as well.

[–] captainlezbian 2 points 5 days ago

Honestly though, this might be the time for a "don't make it weird bro"

[–] [email protected] 94 points 1 week ago (1 children)

If you asking if gender determines how people interact, the answer is absolutely yes. There are so many ways this is true.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Can you explain more? I've been in this world a long time and I am certain that I treat all of my friends the same regardless of their gender identity - I come to every conversation as my authentic self. Are people wearing masks over their personality when interacting with people of differing genders?

[–] [email protected] 54 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (11 children)

Navigating society and following etiquette and social norms doesn't invalidate being authentic. A straight man is going to interact with a woman differently than with a man, not only are the social expectations on how he interacts different, but how he internally feels in relationship to the person is different. As your friend suggested, being a man or a woman can make the difference between whether a romantic relationship is a possibility or not. Courting, flirting, etc. are authentic behaviors straight men will engage in with women that they won't do with men.

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[–] Pronell 24 points 1 week ago

Its just the way some people learn to be and have observed how others interact.

My dad has a story from the late 70s when he was working in seminars. The more conservative the area, the more often women interpreted being included and an equal as flirtation. And as my dad was married, this offended them greatly.

Your mileage will vary with each person. But what your friend was asking was how you would like to be treated, because he is now on uneven footing, and I think this was really cool of him. Even if it's a bit sexist, it's honest.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Are people wearing masks over their personality when interacting with people of differing genders?

Yes, the word person/persona literally means 'mask'. Wearing different "masks" is a common human behaviour.

Do you know about racialization? Gender works in a similar way. Children are taught since early age that they need to follow different "rulesets" when interacting with boys and girls.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

That's really interesting, I didn't know that. On deeper thought, I do act differently in the workplace than I do in a dive bar or in a museum. But I'm getting hung up on treating people differently based on their gender. It would be strange to me to speak to a female-presenting colleague differently than a male-presenting one.

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[–] [email protected] 67 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Some of their questions are...interesting, but I think the important thing to keep in mind here is that they're making an explicit effort to interact with you in the way you prefer, and it is probably be worth pointing out the comments that make you uncomfortable with them directly. They clearly want to make the effort to make you comfortable, so being direct with them would most likely be appreciated by them.

In regards to "is this normal?", I will say that, as a cis person, the line between "don't stereotype based on gender" and respecting gender identity can be quite murky and it can feel precarious to assume how someone wants to be treated after or during their transition. Everyone will have different expectations and wishes, so having discussions like this, though blunt and likely awkward, will hopefully lead to a better relationship overall.

It does sound like this friend cares about you, so I hope you're both able to address this constructively.

[–] ThatWeirdGuy1001 8 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

Yeah people forget that different types of people exist regardless of their gender.

I've met men that get super offended if someone says the slightest uncouth thing. I've met women that get super offended if you try to censor yourself because "she's a lady"

To me this is the perfect will smith meme "he a little confused but he got the spirit"

[–] grue 52 points 1 week ago

As a cis guy, this strikes me as exactly the opposite of toxic masculinity: he's trying to respect your preferences as to how you want to be treated, and in order to do that he has to know what they are first.

(I suppose in the ideal world, there would be enough out trans folks around that cis people would learn how to interact correctly in childhood, but that's not the case yet so we've all gotta learn somewhere.)

Also, you say in a comment that you thought he knew you because you hung out numerous times, but if he just found out you're trans and/or just became comfortable enough to broach the subject to ask these questions, then he clearly didn't know you as well as you think he did.

[–] [email protected] 24 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

I had no idea thr opposite was a thing tbh. Personally, I've always treated boys and girls (or men and women) differently, I assumed everyone did this ? Not deliberately -as a matter of fact I've only noticed rather late, probably in my late teens. I can only surmise that it's social conditioning. Just like in your story, it became evident when I met someone who was neither obviously a man nor obviously a woman: I realized I didn't know how to act and was completely thrown off.
Lately I have come to observe that the sexual differences I thought were deep were in fact pretty shallow, and I found myself trying to "see" men as women and conversely, in an effort to break down this conditioning. But to be frank I thought I was doing something completely original... I would never have guessed anyone else had naturally attained this ambitious goal I set for myself !

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Should I wonder if we'll ever hook up?

I honestly have a hard time realizing that pan is not the default lol

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 week ago (6 children)

I think I was more perplexed because this person knows me - we've hung out numerous times. Why would the label I use for my gender identity be a deciding factor in whether or not they're interested in me sexually?

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 week ago

this is definitely some /r/AreTheStraightsOK material

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[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I don't know about the average cis person, but as a cis man myself I find those questions a bit unsettling, and they suggest a world view that makes me quite uncomfortable. If these attitudes go deep, this person might be hard to remain friends with.

[–] grue 10 points 1 week ago (9 children)

I interpreted it entirely the opposite. I wonder which of us is closer to average?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 6 days ago (1 children)
[–] grue 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 6 days ago

I know, right!? 😬 😬 😬

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