this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2024

276 points (98.6% liked)

World News

39353 readers

3732 users here now

A community for discussing events around the World

Rules:

Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.

Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.

Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

Lemmy World Partners

News [email protected]

Politics [email protected]

World Politics [email protected]

Recommendations

How to spot Misinformation and Propaganda

For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/

Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link

founded 2 years ago

MODERATORS

276

New York man pleads guilty to running Chinese police station in Manhattan (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 1 day ago by MicroWave to c/world

34 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Summary

A New York man, Chen Jinping, pleaded guilty to operating an undeclared Chinese police station in Manhattan for China’s Ministry of Public Security.

The station, part of a transnational repression scheme, aided Beijing in locating and suppressing pro-democracy activists in the U.S., violating American sovereignty.

Authorities say the station also served routine functions like renewing Chinese driving licenses but had a more sinister role, including tracking a California-based activist.

Chen faces up to five years in prison, while a co-defendant has pleaded not guilty and awaits trial.

top 34 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] rottingleaf 27 points 16 hours ago (2 children)

It's actually really scary, when you think about the implications. Not only a police service you didn't expect there can just abuse you. But it also means that if one such foreign police service can, others can. So there can be Turkish\Azeri, or maybe Saudi, or Iranian, or maybe some other insanely humane and democratic force.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 hours ago (2 children)

What makes this scarier than gangs or mobs? An organized group of violent people acting in a way you can’t defend yourself from. Just like the cops themselves. This isn’t any scarier than the actual existence of all of those other groups.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 23 minutes ago

Thanks comerade, here’s 50 cent.

[–] rottingleaf 4 points 4 hours ago

Your own police - a regulated force you can sue, but not resist.

A gang or a mob - likely butt buddies with your own police, but there are possibilities to use law and police against them, and they can't put you in jail for resisting.

A foreign police - like a gang or a mob, but also reliant on a foreign nation state for resources, those including intelligence about you, technical means (like some targeted spyware attacks maybe), more likely to be able to just kidnap you or murder you than a simple gang or a mob. Another level of professionalism.

[–] BleatingZombie 7 points 12 hours ago

That's very true

Just trying to make myself feel better: those cops from other countries don't have any kind of legal jurisdiction over you, so you can kick their ass

That being said, it's not the average American with an Italian ancestry that's having the CCP knock at their door. It's people with family in China who they can threaten

[–] [email protected] 52 points 1 day ago (2 children)

"World police? Pfff stupid Americans... We are the world police!"

-Sincerely CCP Bureau of Public Safety, NYC Division

[–] FlyingSquid 5 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

Phil Ochs said it all the way back in the 1960s:

We're the Cops of the World

Lyrics

Come, get out of the way, boys
Quick, get out of the way
You'd better watch what you say, boys
Better watch what you say

We've rammed in your harbor and tied to your port
And our pistols are hungry and our tempers are short
So bring your daughters around to the port
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

We pick and choose as please, boys
Pick and choose as please
You'd best get down on your knees, boys
Best get down on your knees

We're hairy and horny and ready to shack
We don't care if you're yellow or black
Just take off your clothes and lie down on your back
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Our boots are needing a shine, boys
Boots are needing a shine
But our Coca-cola is fine, boys
Coca-cola is fine

We've got to protect all our citizens fair
So we'll send a battalion for everyone there
And maybe we'll leave in a couple of years
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Dump the reds in a pile, boys
Dump the reds in a pile
You'd better wipe of that smile, boys
Better wipe off that smile

We'll spit through the streets of the cities we wreck
We'll find you a leader that you can't elect
Those treaties we sighned were a pain in the neck
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Clean the johns with a rag, boys
Clean the johns with a rag
If you like you can use your flag, boys
If you like you can use your flag

We've got too much money we're looking for toys
And guns will be guns and boys will be boys
But we'll gladly pay for all we destroy
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

Please stay off of the grass, boys
Please stay off of the grass
Here's a kick in the ass, boys
Here's a kick in the ass

We'll smash down your doors, we don't bother to knock
We've done it before, so why all the shock?
We're the biggest and toughest kids on the block
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

When we butchered your son, boys
When we butchered your son
Have a stick of our gum, boys
Have a stick of our buble-gum

We own half the world, oh say can you see
The name for our profits is democracy
So, like it or not, you will have to be free
'Cause we're the Cops of the World, boys
We're the Cops of the World

I wish more people today knew about Phil Ochs.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

I listen to 'I Ain't Marching Anymore' pretty frequently, but am not familiar with most of his catalogue. I'll check it out!

[–] FlyingSquid 2 points 11 hours ago

I hope you enjoy his songs as much as I do.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

[–] canihasaccount 4 points 19 hours ago (2 children)

I've heard that most, if not all, of their stations outside of NY are essentially for training other police departments. Is that not true?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 34 minutes ago

No, they're also there to report information back to HQ

NBC new york post on the subject

[–] [email protected] 1 points 14 hours ago

You think they’re in France and Australia training local police?

[+] FourPacketsOfPeanuts -58 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

I'm trying to work out what specifically was illegal about all that? He was processing drivers licences for Chinese citizens. Ok. But as long as that doesn't constitute 'fake id' then what's the actual issue? He was locating Chinese citizens in America and passing that information back to China. Again, if he was acting as a private citizen (rather than, say, as a mole in an American government department) then isn't that free speech? I'm being devil's advocate somewhat, but doesn't this amount to a private citizen making a phone call abroad and saying "hey, I heard so and so lives in California" and now the US government are penalising him?

As a matter of law, try not to just automatically think "china bad", as that's not the basis on him being prosecuted. Imagine an American who goes to the Carribbean looking for Americans who are fleeing taxes owed to the IRS (for arguments sake). If they acted within the bounds of what a private citizen can do (look up public records etc) then would it be right for them to be arrested as an "agent of America"?

[–] LANIK2000 54 points 1 day ago (1 children)

That's the kinda logic used to defend the upper class. "What did he really do?" Hyper focusing on specifics, rather than the actual act.

Acting as a foreign agent, directly operating under the orders of a foreign government under the jurisdiction of a sovereign country is a bit of a no go. No matter if it's China or not. We here in Europe have similar events with American spies every dozen years (and Russian and Chinese too ofc).

The stuff you mention about handing out valid Chinese IDs is mostly irrelevant flavor text. It's iffy maily because it was an unofficial station in the eyes of the US. Official embassies fulfill such roles too without issue.

[+] FourPacketsOfPeanuts -22 points 23 hours ago* (last edited 23 hours ago) (3 children)

I'm not being faecitious, but what was the "actual act"? If I was on holiday abroad and heard a fellow Brit, now a naturalised citizen of wherever, boasting about tax evasion and I snitched on them to the tax authorities in Britain, have I now done the same thing as an agent of the British government on foreign soil? Ive done an ostensibly legal act (made a phone call abroad) about something I legally came across as a private citizen, but if one wanted to, could that be cast as "colluding against a citizen on behalf of a foreign government"?

The difference in this case is this person was apparently being paid by the Chinese government. But I'm wondering what specifically about their actions was illegal? Surely if you go about your business doing legal things it doesn't matter whether you're on the payroll of a foreign government or not?

[–] LANIK2000 9 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago) (1 children)

The US has no extradition treaty with China (or similar). So that would likely fall under spying and the "coercing a New Jersey man wanted by Beijing into returning to China" part is very much a major step over the line.

Edit: Also jeez people, he's just asking relatively reasonable questions form ignorance, stop tearing him a new one! Being wrong shouldn't immediately be cause for such backslash.

[–] FourPacketsOfPeanuts 2 points 12 hours ago

Thank you. Sadly people seem increasingly unable to cope with the fact that someone they disagree with is not a troll just a regular person trying to figure things out. I blame twitter.. reddit too.. all of them actually. It's worse by an order of magnitude than 10 / 15 years ago.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

No, you are being facetious.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I'm not being faecitious

Now you're just trying to lie to everyone here. If you can't have an honest discussion you don't deserve an opinion 🤷

[–] FourPacketsOfPeanuts -4 points 20 hours ago (2 children)

Your presumption is the death of honest discussion, try and take people at their word. Some, like myself, are here to talk out their ignorance and learn.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 19 hours ago

This is an argument akin to "What do you mean I'm accused of fraud? All I really did was write my name on a piece of paper!"

It requires deliberate ignorance of the context, and that's why people are unwilling to waste time explaining it to you in detail.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 18 hours ago

Great lengths are gone to, to avoid responding to direct questions. If you can accuse the other person of being in a bad group (bot, capitalist, not actually left, from an instance I don’t like, etc) then you can avoid reflecting on your own philosophies and the flaws that exist in it. Cognitive dissonance avoided and upvotes gained, pretty compelling for our brains.

[–] SlopppyEngineer 28 points 1 day ago (1 children)

These police officers are reported to also go after people of Chinese origin that have said things the CCP doesn't like. Violating the right to free speech on USA soil doesn't sit well with the local authorities and diplomats.

[–] ogeist 25 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Doesn't work like that, my guy. They were targeting Chinese descendants, which would make them american.

Also this:

US officials have warned for years of Chinese determination to influence American policy and cultivate relationships with political figures, but also act to pressure US-Chinese nationals domestically.

[+] FourPacketsOfPeanuts -14 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I'm not trying to be facetious, but am interested in the logic of the law specifically. What was legally wrong about a private citizen sending a message abroad about publicly available information on someone?

I assume they were doing more nefarious things, but the article doesn't specifically say.

But if 'all' they were doing was dealing with publicly available information, then I don't follow the legal logic..

[–] ogeist 21 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

"private citizen sending a message abroad about publicly available information on someone?"

That is actually a pretty nefarious thing because it is targeted, as in spying. That's what is not legal.

Just a quick search gave me this:

18 U.S.C. 2261A says, “Whoever (1) travels in interstate or foreign commerce or is present within the jurisdiction of the United States, with the intent to kill, injure, harass, intimidate, or place under surveillance, or intimidate another person, and in the course of, or as a result of, such travel or presence engages in conduct that (A) places that person in reasonable fear of the death of, or serious bodily injury to (i) that person; (ii) an immediate family member (iii) a spouse or intimate partner of that person….”

In this case, there is an intent to have repercussions. I was wondering as well why Private Investigators are allowed to do this and in short, they are regulated so they have to work within the frame of law and should have a lawful purpose.

[–] FourPacketsOfPeanuts -5 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

Thanks, that makes some things a lot clearer.

But just play along with me for a second...

We're in court and that law gets cited and the defence attorney says "surveillance was happening, yes, but that in itself wasn't illegal. In order to break that particular law one has to prove it was being done with the intention that it result in "a well founded fear of death or serious bodily injury"'. And where is the proof that was the intention or the result?

So if this guy's going around like a mobster on behalf of the Chinese government and threatening people on their doorstep I'd get it.

But, reading the law closely, just sending information to another country does not, in itself, seem to be illegal. That's why I was making the point about free speech. The first amendment is literally about communicating legal information freely without persecution from the government, even if that's with people the government doesn't like.

I'm not saying the guy didn't do anything wrong, I just mean I assume there's more to it than the article is describing..

[–] ogeist 7 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago) (1 children)

But surveillance is illegal, especially in a targeted form. Let me put it like this, your address is public, as people can see when you get in and out of your house. But now someone goes and tells someone else, a criminal, your address with the intention to cause you damages. That person, the informant, becomes directly an accomplice, even if the person didn't do damage directly.

[–] FourPacketsOfPeanuts -2 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

But it's the "with intention to cause you damages" bit that makes it illegal (I believe).

Saying you saw so-and-so down at the shops is obviously not illegal. Saying that to their ex-partner so they go and beat them up is. (Even then a prosecutor would have to prove you incited or intend harm to come, just the sharing of info itself isn't a crime per se)

That's what I wasn't understanding from the article. Are there very specific limits on first amendment so that what would ordinarily be communication of public information becomes illegal just because the recipient is a foreign government. Or was it illegal because the public information was shared with the known intent of causing physical harm.

The article sounded like the former, which surprised me. I think the latter is probably the actual circumstances though I could be wrong.

[–] ogeist 4 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

Well you are talking about 2 different things.

Stalking: just following a person for your own personal benefit.

And Spying/Surveillance: following someone to share the information with another entity or government.

The person in question had several logs and such logs were communicated to the chinese government, they have proof of this, so such actions are criminal offenses.