this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2024
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Housing Bubble 2: Return of the Ugly

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[–] [email protected] 66 points 1 month ago

No war but class war.

[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 month ago (3 children)

This is what drives me crazy every time I hear people talking about needing to build more housing. The first thing we need to do is correct this problem. My suggestion is an increasing property tax premium on vacant homes. I’d suggest doubling the tax rate for each consecutive year a property is vacant for more than 185 days-just over half a year.

This has the side benefit of making Airbnb landlording less feasible as a small time investment strategy.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago (1 children)

True, but it is not just about that there are X million houses emtpy and Y million people homeless. It is also about location of those empty houses. That might not overlap with location of the homeless, and I guess we are not talking about forced relocation here. There is probably still a good overlap of locations of empty houses and homeless and that part needs fixing.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago

See: the Bay Area and most of LA absolutely suffocated by suburban sprawl. You could build higher density residential dwellings, but first you need to tear down a few existing homes, plus get it past all the NIMBYS whose property values might go down if there's not hyperinflated demand.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

This is what drives me crazy every time I hear people talking about needing to build more housing.

There are regional housing shortages. The classic example is in Northern California (particularly around San Fransisco and San Jose) where you've got these huge tracks of ranch-style homes and barely any vertical development. A lot of that is due to the seismic activity in the region, making taller buildings more expensive to construct. But more is due to the historical development practices of throwing up a thousand cheepo ticky-tacky units on real estate they acquired dirt-cheap from the state and flipped as fast as possible. Now the land is developed as this low-traffic sprawl, and people are obsessed with propping up their land-value to justify the seven figure notes their carrying. So building denser housing is politically and logistically prohibitive.

Basically, the problem isn't a housing shortage so much as a shit job of urban planning. Yes, houses exist, but they're hours away from job sites with no quality mass transit to move people between residence and work. No, you can't just pile people into these low-occupancy (often badly maintained) units if they don't have the kind of money to afford their own cars, pay for childcare, afford the utilities, cover maintenance of the units, etc, etc. That's a recipe for slums.

At some level, you need to actually plan your residential economy. That's a harder kind of work that politicians and bureaucrats elected based on their cool Tweets and Instagram feeds don't really want to do.

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[–] FlashMobOfOne 5 points 1 month ago

Agreed, but the problem is that the 'we' in this scenario votes for this every two years. When both ruling parties tell us they're capitalist, we need to believe them.

[–] lewdian69 45 points 1 month ago (1 children)

How does this jive with all the talk of a housing crisis. Where's that invisible hand of the market making things affordable. I hate capitalism

[–] [email protected] 29 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

https://www.commondreams.org/news/wall-street-buying-houses
Emphasis is mine.

"The real estate industry would like you to believe the problem is entirely one based on supply and demand," and that regulations need to be changed to allow for the construction of more affordable housing, reads the report. But with 16 million vacant homes across the U.S.—28 for every unhoused person—"the reality is that the owners of concentrated wealth... are playing a more pronounced role in residential housing, thereby creating price inflation, distortions, and inefficiencies in the market."

Take it easy! Balance will trickle down any day now. We just have to trust them to regulate themselves a little longer. They wouldn't deliberately sabotage the market for profit, now would they?

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 month ago (2 children)

I'd like to see a breakdown by zip code, or at the very least by county, of home values and vacancy rates. I have a suspicion that the problem is a local supply and demand problem rather than a national one. It makes no difference to the insane silicon valley housing market that there are thousands vacant homes in Michigan. This is why the build housing first plan is critical. We need housing where people need to live.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Fair, but a national mandate that WFH be offered for any jobs that it’s possible to do from home would mitigate the “having to live” in a given locale.

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[–] FlyingSquid 3 points 1 month ago

This is anecdotal, but I live in an Indiana town that isn't especially desirable, but the cost of living is quite low. I live in one of the best neighborhoods in town in terms of things like very low crime and neighbors who get along, but there are plenty of houses for sale here that never get sold. I've looked them up. They're all way, way out of our price range regardless of their size (it's a weird subdivision with homes of all sizes). Our own home has more than doubled in value according to Zillow and we only bought it in 2017 or 2018.

The only house I have seen get bought even relatively quickly was the one next to ours, which we think was foreclosed on, was sitting vacant for years, and probably had someone squatting in it. The photos on Zillow were a nightmare. I don't even think the second story floor would have been safe to walk on. It was valued at about what we initially paid for our house despite being twice its size including a finished basement (we don't even have a basement). Someone bought that one within a month and is now fixing it up, presumably in the hopes of reselling it. I wish them luck.

[–] reddig33 40 points 1 month ago (1 children)

A vacant property tax would help with this.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Exponential increase for each and every additional unit (house or apartment) vacant for more than 3 months (without undergoing active, actual remodel with a set end date for the work) in a given year.

Oh no, not enough people for every unit to be filled? Bummer, better divest starting with single family structures!

Edit: actually, now that I think more about it, I see absolutely no reason we shouldn’t just hard cap the number of housing buildings any one company or individual (no shell companies and whatever bullshit loopholes) can own if they didn’t originally build them. Let’s say 200 multi-family (apartment) buildings or 10 single family buildings. Anything more than that must be sold for whatever the market is willing to pay. Too bad, so sad if you lose money on it, that’s the risk landlords are always telling us they take.

Nobody needs more than that, at all, because housing shouldn’t be a commodity to profit from, and if they want more buildings to profit from, they can build them instead of just buying it as a ~~leech~~ investment. Fuck companies who treat everyone like shit for profit.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

How about a 1% tax on every extra home you own. Still allows the millionaires to have their second homes in florida or whatever, but makes it impossible to earn money after more than a few extra houses.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Maybe it would help to massively increase property taxes on all houses that aren't the primary residence of their owners, and use the proceeds to build more houses

[–] Thebeardedsinglemalt 18 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (13 children)

What is this doing to the housing market?

I am 40 and single. I make 90k a year, I have 130k in total proceeds from the sale of my previous house I owned for 17 years which will go towards the down payment and initial repairs/upgrades with hopefully 10k to savings, and I have very good credit.

I cannot find a house I can afford. If it's less than 350k, it's either a complete disaster on the inside requiring 50k or more to make decent, it's under 1500 sq feet and very claustrophobic inside, it's a cheaply built house in a cookie cutter neighborhood that's already showing it's quality, or it has less than 2 full baths and a 1 car garage. Or the taxes in the area are over 7k a year.

And a LOT of the houses have the same gray vinyl flooring that's as ugly as it is cheap.

[–] SwordInStone 7 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Your comment shows American relationship with space of their homes. I live in <1500 sq feet home with my girlfriend and I wouldn't call it claustrophobic.

[–] LifeOfChance 4 points 1 month ago

It's really dependant on how the layout is. Generally 1500sqft isn't a problem however if it has 5 rooms squeezed into the house it begins feeling cramped especially if you have a large family. I have 1800sqft and the first floor has plenty of space but upstairs has a low ceiling (6.5ft) and about a 2ft wide hallway leading to 2 full bedrooms, a full sized bath, and a small guest room that's only slightly bigger than a broom closet. There isn't a way to have rooms downstairs so I consider my upstairs cramped but my overall living conditions fine. Now imagine a single floor utilizing that space needing just as many bedrooms and it begins getting cramped with the kitchen, living room, dining room.

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[–] Maggoty 7 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Mass market single family housing is a disease that the developers have perfected. Using the cheapest materials, in the cheapest way, with the laziest inspectors.

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[–] chiliedogg 5 points 1 month ago (4 children)

I work in the development department of a city that's and enclave for the ultra-rich. Literally every household in the city is millionaires or better.

Every house in the city is unique. Every build site requires civil and structural engineering. Every home has an architect designing it to be a unique structure. The average new build here is 8-10 million dollars, with the big ones being 50 million+.

We're talking tennis pavilions on the roof, indoor arboretums and galleries, the works.

And they're all built cheaply and fall apart within a decade.

They're shitty houses, but when people are dropping 8-figures on them, they can afford to drop a couple million more on a remodel every 5-10 years.

You can't buy a quality house anymore.

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[–] FlyingSquid 17 points 1 month ago (2 children)

That's actually fewer homes that Blackstone owns than I would have thought.

Not that it makes things any better, I just would have expected the number of homes Blackstone owns to be in the millions by now. Maybe they have subsidiaries that are buying up homes under different names.

Obviously, there are plenty of other corporations that own thousands of homes so it doesn't make much of a difference.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago

A more functioning government would have immediately dropped the hammer on said business practices.

We live in a Corporate bordello.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 month ago (9 children)

Add in other corps:

20% of all property purchases are for investments: 65% of those properties purchases are by people who own 10 or more properties.

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[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago

This makes the housing market sound similar to Diamond marketing.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I wonder if the board of Blackstone have names and addresses...

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Well they obviously have 300000 addresses duh

[–] Professorozone 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I don't understand. How much higher can rents go?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

rent_target = your_income - beans - tent

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Sounds like it's time to start burning shit down

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 month ago

Or just start squatting in the vacant properties.

[–] feedum_sneedson 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

I genuinely don't understand why this is legal. It's tied housing with extra steps, isn't it?

[–] FlyingSquid 11 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Just wait until we find out that Blackstone's algorithms, trained on actual real estate deals, are giving preferential treatment to a man named Dave with bad credit over a woman named Lashawnda with good credit.

[–] skyspydude1 5 points 1 month ago

The worst part is that there's so much class discrimination that you don't even need to bring race into it to see how broadly fucked it is. I personally have a friend that's an older white guy who the bank wouldn't approve for a 15% down mortgage that would cost him about $1000/mo, but he had no issues getting approved at a manufactured home lot where the lot rent alone is $950/mo, plus the $500/mo for the home itself. All because he used to be poor and had some really unfortunate financial luck, he gets the privilege of paying twice as much for objectively worse housing.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 month ago

This shit is going to turn me into a maoist

[–] TonyOstrich 5 points 1 month ago

There is one very important aspect that shouldn't be ignored about the fact at the end. Although it may be technically correct, it is almost certainly not geographically correct. If filling those homes requires a mass movement of people requiring even something as little a a couple of hour drive, is it really relevant?

Don't get me wrong, I hate corporate ownership of residential property, and I also think empty homes, especially if it's a second, third, fourth, etc., should result in some kind of tax penalty. I don't think using easily discounted facts is ultimately in our best interest when pushing for change to address these issues.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Be a shame if someone burned em all down and we all just started over.

[–] glimse 9 points 1 month ago (2 children)

You mean if someone burned them down and blackrock got an insurance payout valued higher at the homes were worth allowing them to build lower quality replacements and rent it out at an even higher price to people because it's new and driving the average home price even higher? Yeah, that would be a shame

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

Meanwhile insurance prices go up for everyone else, and housing supply goes down, making cost of housing higher still

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

Hmm what's gonna happen to these rich landowners?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)

There are 16 million vacant houses--28 for every homeless person.

First: there are roughly 700,000 homeless people at any one time in the US, according to HUD. If there are 16M vacant homes, that's more like 23 per homeless person. So the math is a bit off.

Second: I see a lot of vacant homes in my area. Most of the should be condemned and bulldozed. There's one I drive by every day on my way to work that's covered with kudzu. I remember seeing the coroner there about two and a half years ago, and the house has just sat there since. My guess is that it's locked in probate, there were no heirs that could be located, or something like that, and so there's nothing that can be done with it until it's seized by the county and auctioned off to pay the tax debt on the property (that's usually about ten years or so in my area). I would lay a sizeable wager on many of the 16M vacant homes being claimed being properties like that; places that are houses in name, but not suitable to live in.

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[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

This is what squatting was invented for, isn't it?

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