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This is an actual conversation I had with my oldest nephew when we went to the Boston Tea Party Museum last week.
"If you ever hear people complaining that damaging commercial property during a protest is unacceptable, remember what you learn about the Tea Party today. Our country was literally founded on protests trashing commercial property. And remember that some people complained to them that it was unacceptable too."
The tea wasn't owned by the mom and pop shop neighbors who were also fighting for the same cause. There is a difference to me in a large corporation sustaining damage it will recoupe from insurance and people trying to scrape by and now can't afford rent until the hopefully if they had insurance, then maybe a check comes in a few months.
Those places if a protestor breaks in during a riot I am fine with being shot at and even killed if need be. Your cause doesn't give you the right to starve or put in jeopardy other people's lives who did not choose to riot.
Case in point
Owners are owners. I can't have too much sympathy if a group of disenfranchised people, who have never had the opportunity to own anything, don't distinguish between hyper capitalists and regular vanilla capitalists. Both are pieces of the system that denies people the value of their labor.
That's exactly what the government wants. They want you to eat each other not them and the corporations. Stop buying shit, stop paying for internet and cell service, stop buying cars etc. That's the real control we have. Just be idle and watch them bail.
Jesse's absolutely right. The only reason our politicians are governing us is because we let them. Occasionally they need to be reminded of that fact.
The reason our government governs us today is because they have an overwhelming ability to do violence on us, and the majority of us fear it, even if only subconsciously. If you think it's by our choice, you're utterly delusional.
You're right. I never signed a contract with the USA agreeing the current system is the best. We have our ancestors to thank for that, and even then, most of them had no control over the situation.
What's the best way forward here? Constitutional renewal every generation?
Constitutional renewal every generation?
Yes, especially considering that was the original intent of the document. Whether or not that's the most realistic, or even a possible way forward at this point is another question entirely, and I don't like what I think the answer is.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Based take.
I swear, if you could teleport some people back to the French revolution, they'd be like "No need to protest, the king will give up absolute power on his own if we keep asking nicely" 🙄
The idea of a Right Wing literally exists because the deputies who thought that way in France back then took the right side of the chamber.
Would be nice if we could start at not demonizing peaceful protests. Nowadays any protest is seen as a massive misguided problem of you so much as block a street.
But then muh car can't move! Go defend your human rights somewhere where it doesn't inconvenience me!
spoiler
/s
In fairness, I've got too many emergency workers in my family not to draw the line at fully blocking thoroughfares. Can you look an EMT in the eye who has had a patient die while their ambulence couldn't get through protestors to the hospital and insist you're in the right? Happens more than you'd want to know. Can't find statistics, but googling it shows just page upon page of different incidents, and unfortunately most of the time shit like that happens it isn't published since it's all HIPAA-complicated to discuss that stuff.
You want to inconvenience someone walking into a Macdonalds? Go ahead. But keep the artery roads clear. It's not about convenience, it's about shutting down life-saving infrastructure. Those assholes that cemented themselves to 93N in Boston 5 years back didn't earn any sympathy from anyone, even their own cause.
To simplify, the only way to get me not to stand beside you in defending your human rights is if you're recklessly taking away someone else's.
Dang kids should do their climate strike on the weekends!
Not much of a strike then, is it? You want workers to strike in their free time too? That will show 'em!
This. Even "liberals" are out here "PROTEST IS COOL AND ALL BUT DESTRUCTION OF PROPERTY JUST MAKES EVERYONE HATE YOUR CAUSE" over a fucking sticker or sign stuck to something.
Riots are generally an escalation of peaceful protests, sure there are exceptions.
Usually, riots break out when people get so frustrated at the fact that no progress gets made during protests that they start to lash out.
I'm with Jesse on this one
We remember the reasonable ones positively, but it isn’t all of them. It’s important to remember that not all riots or protests are to create a more equitable society. Unite the right was a riot for example and one could easily call Mussolini’s march on rome a protest.
Speaking in terms of the USA, the constitution was built with the intended reasonable pursuit of escalating properly-to violence If need be. Peaceful protests, voting, freedom of speech, etc. are all avenues of reprimand towards an over reaching or overbearing government. Violence was seen as acceptable and even necessary in some cases but was never intended as a first resort.
This is why right to bear arms exists along with all the other approaches. Now it's a matter or decision by the people of what methods have been exhausted, which are futile, and what is next.
Revolting, fighting, and force in the name of freedom from a truly oppressive government is a necessary sacrifice for any people who wish to live with the freedoms that brings regardless of nationality, location, or beliefs.
Clarifications: This is not against any government for any disagreement, just truly oppressive ones that strip human rights from the people.
Violence should never be a first resort, but has it's place among negotiations.
Personal opinion: These means should not be used for ones own benefit, you are upset because of the ways of life for all the people, the rights of your people, there is a fair likelihood this method will result in a world you will never see or benefit significantly from, its for others; those that follow. How else would I be able to sit here and eat bugles if someone didn't strive for a world good enough for me to do so?
my favorite is whenever i encounter the phrase "non-permitted protest". like, the idea that you should ask permission from the authority you're protesting before doing so: it's just so laughably missing the point
Yep. Having to get permission from some authority in order to oppose the authority in question makes no sense.
Americans needs to fucking quit their jobs and go peotest. Your country is shit and sitting idly by and posting memes about it, wont solve anything
Look at france.
Yep.. People hate protests because they don't understand that's how it has always worked.
People hate protests because they value not being inconvenienced more than they value the rights of others.
We should just start calling riots championship football celebrations. Then the media and the pols would love them.
When I was growing up I had a lot of right-wing influences in my ear; I almost grew up to be an alt-right/fascist psycho. I've reformed now, and I'm the polar opposite of where I was when I was younger, but I hope I can offer a little insight into why protest is so demonized: it's because people don't think it actually works.
Protests, riots, and other public shows of solidarity are viewed in the same way as a petition: it's not going to actually get anything done, it's just raising awareness and trying to get people to agree with you. This is, of course, a fundamental misunderstanding of what protest (or even petitions) are really about... But when I was in that mindset, I didn't care to know more, and I didn't bother to read into. There's a great deal of cognitive dissonance regarding it, because historically-speaking, protests are typically lionized, i.e. the Boston Tea Party.
I'm not saying to sympathize either; being a fashy shithead is first and foremost a choice. I just hope this helps with understanding a bit more. ACAB, taxation is theft, keep fighting the good fight.
As a Portlander, we had our fair share of riots... The problem is any lack of a coherent message.
Things would start off fine during the day with a Black Lives Matter protest, but as soon as the sun went down it became taken over by anarchist white kids who just wanted an excuse to break things and steal shit.
Not all protests are the same, and when you have people attacking an Historical Society for no good goddamn reason, that's where you lose support:
Same for blocking streets and freeways. You want to piss off your intended audience? Keep them from going home.
To top things off... the things they were protesting had fuck all to do with Portland. What do you want Portland to do about ANY of this shit?
Fucking preach. France was rioting for literally NOTHING. And we're losing hundreds of thousands to drugs/homlessness/no healthcare/etc.
Where the fuck are the organizers? I'm in Texas and I'm just about done w/ this shit.
Nah, they weren't rioting for nothing - they were rioting because a line was crossed.
If they let the PM push things through in that way, the battlelines will just be around a more important issue, and they'll be in a much weaker position
Cops murdering a child isn't "literally nothing", it's a very good reason to riot. Just because it happens so often here that we're desensitized doesn't make it any less abhorrent.
When localities pass ordinances to restrict more peaceful protests, they run the risk of pressurizing into even more violent and illegal protest situations.
I try to explain this to my dad. Protest means that people are unhappy and feel like their voices aren't being heard. People need to be motivated to do it. It's an effect, not a cause.
Riots are a last resort because people end up dead or in jail if they fail. You want to keep people who are on your side free and alive while achieving your goals.
But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard.
MLK Jr. - “The Other America,” 1968
Love this quote, everyone starts with the last sentence and sometimes include a few sentences after that but I think this section is the most generically useful bit. This applies everywhere for every struggle of the oppressed.
For context this is the full quote, where MLK Jr. condemns riots but also equally condemns the conditions that cause people to riot: inequality, injustice, lack of humanity, lack of progress.
Let me say, as I’ve always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I’m still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapons available to oppress[ed] people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve, that in a real sense, it is impractical for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. Continue to affirm that there is another way.
But at the same time, it is as necessary for me to be as vigorous in condemning the conditions which cause persons to feel that they must engage in riotous activities, as it is for me to condemn riots. I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. And in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity. So in a real sense, our nation’s summer’s riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.
Wise words, but I think even MLK Jr would say take the peaceful approach first. You have to give peace a chance. If that doesn't work, you escalate from there, but you don't go scorched earth without trying the alternatives first.
His way was nonviolent, not peaceful.
What he was doing and why is often buried in history class - you could put it as "exploiting the system until everyone feels the hurt"
Civil disobedience wasn't about a message or public sentiment - they were about getting arrested. You make a scene, the police are called, you refuse to cooperate until they're forced to arrest you.
Having been arrested, they either let you go and you do it again, or they charge you - and now you're in the court system. Now you have standing to challenge the laws, appeal to higher courts, and counter-sue
They tied up the courts, ground businesses to a halt, and disrupted people's lives
It wasn't physically violent, but it was violent in a more metaphorical way. They didn't win over hearts and minds... They just made it more politically costly to keep fighting them off than to give in
And there's an argument to be made that this all wouldn't have worked without the black Panthers... Their purpose was to show up armed when the police came to black neighborhoods. They were an unspoken threat - we're playing within the rules of the system, but if you break them all bets are off
He used peace because the bigots seeing "inferior violent savages" organizing peaceful protests made them more uncomfortable than if they were violent. It's not because he thought violent protest was outright bad, just not as useful in his circumstances. He worked along side of organizers who did use violence. His approach was likely strengthened by this. Also, so many of his protests were called riots by the media. If you take a stand against the monied, they will use it to make your movement appear violent and evil even when it's not.
The real question is, what changed? Why are we no longer ready to go up in arms against our governments for literally violating us?
Because the power imbalance got too great.
Seems like Heisenburg was a one trick pony. Jesse was the real visionary all along!
As long as no one is damaging private property of people who have nothing to do with what is being rioted over.