this post was submitted on 13 May 2024
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[–] [email protected] 85 points 1 month ago

Exactly. Self sufficiency is definitely a myth. Humans cannot survive alone for long. You simply cannot make tools that will keep you alive for long. You'll have to venture back to civilization to get anything worked via metal at the very least. Just the basic crafts for clothing, shelter, tools and food is more than any one person can handle. It took whole tribes and villages even at the earliest points.

Now if you mean: how can I live in a cabin off the grid with minimal contact (1-2x a year) then that's doable.

[–] [email protected] 56 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Tis a very wholesome meme, I hope this kind of cooperation is (or at least will be) possible

Edit: on a large scale, I mean

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 month ago (1 children)

A fuckload of people are really going to have to make an effort to get their shit together for that to happen. As things stand the majority are dead weight.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (17 children)

I think at this point, we are just flat out overpopulated. There are simply too many people competing for resources and a significant number of them just merely exist without contributing a whole lot back to society.

[–] TotallynotJessica 39 points 1 month ago

We're overconsuming more than we're overpopulated. It's probably possible to reach sustainability with our current population if we curtailed consumption, but our consumption driven economy would have to change at a fundamental level. We'd need to impose strict taxes on waste and heavily subsidize efficiency while redistributing wealth from the ultra polluting ultra rich.

Overpopulation myths distract us from the real culprits of our unsustainable system. We need to cull the fat cats before we cull the masses. Population control should always be the last resort, while redistribution should always be the first.

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[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 month ago (2 children)

the real self sufficient homestead is founding a village with like at least 50 like-minded people.

[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 month ago (1 children)

At least 50, but I'd make it larger. Maybe increase from 50 to about 8 billion and make sure all the villagers' needs are met.

[–] Agent641 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

How much rent should we charge?

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

No rent? Can I at least extract their surplus value for myself? I can't get hard unless I'm extracting surplus value.

[–] broken_chatbot 15 points 1 month ago (1 children)

...and refrain from drinking Kool-Aid and punch, just in case

[–] theangryseal 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

AA got it right as far as that goes. Leadership revolves.

AA would be one of the biggest organized cults on the planet if the founders hadn’t thought of that.

Now, not everyone can be a leader, and those who can’t won’t generally volunteer. So, what you end up with in a small community is a handful of leaders who don’t agree on everything and therefore represent the needs of the people in the group a lot better.

Whether we like it or not, positions of leadership tend to happen naturally. As long as we hold sacred the fact that there is no truly central leadership, it shouldn’t devolve into a cult.

It might just be a part of our nature though. When you enter recovery they give you a list of places to avoid (they gave me one anyway) because the revolving leadership has fallen apart and a single personality has taken over.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (1 children)

AA relies on religion and finding god to treat a medical problem like addiction. I don't think it's the best example my dude.

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[–] [email protected] 25 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] BrotherL0v3 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The Conquest of Bread was a breath of fresh air! I cannot believe I read a book about politics / economics that was actually optimistic and left me feeling good about fundamental human nature.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

That's what you got from it? To me it was hard to understand what they were getting at. Not even sure I finished it.

[–] BrotherL0v3 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Yeah! Kropotkin argues a couple points:

  • People are generally pretty good at self-organizing to solve problems, and have done so effectively in small communities for thousands of years.

  • We have the technology* and productive power to ensure everyone enjoys a decent standard of living.

  • Much of the scarcity we face today* is artificially created and entirely avoidable if we produce to meet needs instead of maximize profits.

  • Things like laziness, corruption, and greed can largely be addressed by ensuring that all of a person's needs are guaranteed to be met. Many people we currently* call "lazy" are either stuck in a hyper-specialized job that they can't leave because they need to sell their labor to survive, or unmotivated because much of the wealth they produce is absorbed by someone else. And people tend to take more than they need more often than not because they are stuck competing with their fellow man for resources instead of cooperating for the common good.

He also does some back-of-the-napkin math to show that it takes less than a year's worth of labor to produce everything a household needs for a year, and that the remaining labor time of that year should be open for people to cultivate different skills and pursue their passions. He argues that the distinction between what we today call blue-collar and white-collar work is unhealthy, and that everyone should do a bit of both.

His central thesis IMO seems to be that in the event of a socialist revolution, people shouldn't be afraid to immediately start doing socialism. Take inventory of the food & start giving it to the hungry, figure out how many empty houses the community has & start housing the homeless, stop growing cash crops / producing niche luxury goods and start growing food / manufacturing necessities until everyone's needs are met. He sternly warns against half-measures: maintaining the state's use of violence or keeping track of some kind of currency or propping up political leaders are all things he claims will spell the end of a revolution before it gets off the ground.

I really loved the book. I feel like it provided a great example of what communism could (and IMO should) look like without all the baggage of so-called communist states like China and the USSR.

*= The book was written in the late 1800s. I think a lot of it holds up really well and some points seemed like they really called events that would happen in the next hundred years. That being said, it's probably not as airtight today as it may have been in 1894.

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[–] RaoulDook 24 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Being self-sufficient should be a goal for every human being to strive for. Independence is a potent form of freedom that makes you feel like a magical eagle.

I'm not saying you should be Ted Kazynski or however you spell the Unabomber's last name and live in complete isolation for most of your life, because it's cool to have access to society's benefits and all. But the more you can do for yourself, the more secure you will be in all ways. Basically don't be a helpless or useless person.

[–] Stovetop 22 points 1 month ago (4 children)

The more self-sufficient you can be, the fewer societal resources you will take up, which could then go to someone else in greater need. That's my perspective at least.

The organization I work for is all about helping people get back on their feet, and while I would never want to tell someone they should be more self-sufficient and rely less on us, there's no denying that our resources are already stretched thin. At times, it forces us to prioritize those with the greatest need, even when others still need help.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

The more self-sufficient you can be, the fewer societal resources you will take up, which could then go to someone else in greater need. That's my perspective at least.

But the more self-sufficient you are, the more resources of yourself you need to supply yourself. So you can provide less societal resources. If you do not need to provide clothes for yourself, you have more time caring for elderly, etc.

As another view, the total resources need does not directly change by changing who does what. The advantages of helping each other are in the OP. At some point however, I would think, the overhead of organization grows so large that it may not be worth it anymore. Just think of the amount of work put into "useless" administration in many countries. But in a 30 person village, this is probably negligible.

Edit: Thanks for helping other people on the feet!

[–] Stovetop 1 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

That is a good point, but I would consider resources needed to maintain stability versus resources needed to achieve stability. Metaphorically, it's easy to stand on top of a mountain, but it's a lot harder to climb it from the bottom. And the mountain gets taller the longer you wait.

Once you're at the top, you can lend a hand to the people still making the climb without worrying about being pulled back down.

[–] RaoulDook 4 points 1 month ago

Good point, and it sounds like you're doing good work out there

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[–] [email protected] 23 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Honestly, I hate these kinds of replies.

None of them answered the question, they just told him that he was wrong for wanting it.

It's just.... Unhelpful.

[–] [email protected] 39 points 1 month ago (2 children)

well then you need to understand agriculture, animal husbandry, construction, woodworking, become a certified electrician, plumber and gas installer, brush up on sewing, first aid, and be prepared to starve to death or freeze to death if you fuck it up, or just die from standing on a rusty nail.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Your terms are acceptable.

[–] rockstarmode 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The most vital thing isn't doing everything the hard way - just being smart about doing it all yourself. It's the sense that freedom is a function of actual independence, and actual independence is a consequence of ability.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/adventure/outdoors/a24399/the-art-of-staying-alive/

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

Well like, I am a woodworker. I haul several barrels of sawdust to the dump every year, and I'm only going to make more as time goes on and I start selling my work. I'm thinking of installing a pellet stove in my house and making my own wood pellets, which would save me a couple hundred bucks a year on gas AND the $30 or so I spend at the dump every year hauling out sawdust. I could further detach myself from the fossil fuel industry and the evils therein. This would require purchasing a machine that cost about what my table saw did, or about my take from the sale of one Morris chair.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Ok, then explain those topics instead of just telling them they are wrong.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

agriculture is the act of cultivating soil and producing crops...

should I go on or is that a good illustrative example of how the original request is so far reaching and unspecific as to be functionally useless.

It's like asking "how do I make a game?"

a video game? a board game? a playground game? a card game? all of which require skills, disciplines, planning, research and understanding of mechanics that no one can summarize even in a single full length book, let alone a forum post reply.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago (1 children)

welcome to IRC, SO and many other places. you're always asking the wrong question and everything is an XY problem.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Sometimes true, sometimes not.

In some situations I feel like there's some validity to not answering the question and saying what someone should do instead. Like, for example, if someone asked me how to bypass a security mechanism I don't think it would be wrong to say they shouldn't do that and not provide instructions for how to do so. Further, you might even argue that it's unethical for me to provide guidance that I know (or believe) is wrong.

This is why a root cause analysis is so important. I feel like often in those situations, the problem trying to be solved is really a symptom of the issue as opposed to the actual issue.

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Indeed.

Even if you try to convince them of their wrongness, at least also give an answer to the best of your abilities.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 1 month ago

"If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe." ~Carl Sagan

Everything we do is build on the shoulders of giants.

[–] StaySquared 4 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Huh... self sufficiency is not a myth. There's many parts of the U.S. where citizens are off the grid, some more extreme than others. However, if and when the shtf, being self sufficient might make you an easy and weaker target. I believe men should be building relationships with other men in the community. To teach and learn from each other on how to be sufficient not just for themselves but for their community or communities even. Most importantly survival skills.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Super skeptical. They mine their own metals? Produce their own magnets? Forget their own steel? Make their own batteries? Could you provide a few examples?

[–] ameancow 4 points 1 month ago

There are a lot of prepper types out there who might be theoretically 'ready" for societal collapse, but yes, they get there by already having a stockpile of societal goods and materials and of course guns. These folks likely have a great plan for what they're doing when the bombs fall, but likely not a shred of the social and communal skills necessary to keep a functional society alive for the long term.

Maybe some of the more isolated amish communities could subsist for a while without injections of modern supplies, but even still we're talking about less an "off grid" lifestyle and more like "radically reduced technology."

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you here, but keep in mind none of those things are necessary for survival, and most such products can last decades if properly maintained.

I think you're arguing against the most extreme interpretation of what this person said.

To give you an example, I'll show you what it looks like if I were to interpret your comment in the same way:

In some capacity, you have to admit, self sufficiency is possible. Forged metal, magnets, and batteries aren't necessary to sanitize water, grow, forage or hunt food, or to build shelter.

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[–] ameancow 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

It's wild how many people out there have really solid plans for what they're going to do when the apocalypse happens, but no plans for what happens in the subsequent months, years and decades after societal collapse.

It's almost like the hollywood portrayal of survival in a post-apocalyptic world is as good at portraying the struggles and hardships of day-to-day survival as they at portraying people eating breakfast or having phone calls like we do in the real world or like, how many movies and shows give us the view into what real people really do all day long.

It's that there's just no views to be had from showing an audience the main character working at their job for nine hours a day and navigating securing a promotion, just like there's no views to be had watching someone in a real survival situation shivering and crying every day for weeks at a time as they get sick and skinny and lose everyone they care about to infections and starvation.

Because fucking hunting and gardening won't save you if World War 3 or the Turbo Space Covid Cordyceps Aids virus strikes unless you are already adept at living completely off the land, which outside a few absolute nuts out there, nobody is ready for.

What will save us if the shit really goes down is community.

People don't survive, societies survive, it's why we have one now.

[–] Mostly_Harmless_Variant 3 points 1 month ago

Dependency and self-sufficiency are not opposites but extremes in both directions. It's about finding the middle and and keeping it balanced as variables change.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago (3 children)

How does one unlearn this unhealthy idea of self sufficiency?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (3 children)

Learning to love yourself?

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[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Start getting involved in communal activities like sports, volunteering, town halls, and going to the local bar

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