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Yeah, I'm not a fan of conscription. I've seen Ukrainian loved ones reckon with the difficulty of the need for a self-defense force while the rest of the world sits on its hands. I'm happy to discuss it, as long as it's an honest discussion about conscription and not purely Ukrainian conscription?
Did I say I am only against Ukrainian conscription? No I did not.
Why focus on the country that is defending itself and thus using conscription as a necessary evil, instead of the aggressor using conscription to go kill innocent people? For pure conquest by an insecure little bald man. One seems closer to an evil necessity, the other just like evil, at least to me.
I bring up conscription because I'm opposed to it, that is why. That includes Russia doing it, but Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy not the dictatorship. I'm not going to look at this & think to myself, well Russia is worse so even if Ukraine started force-breeding women to create more future soldiers then it is okay cause Russia is bad. I can understand Putin is a fascist dictator, but Ukraine forcing people to war through kidnapping/beating/jail/etc. is not good either.
I agree with what you're saying. I'm just trying to contextualize why I responded as I did. Tensions are high, I meant nothing personal.
To my earlier point, I saw this happen with a Ukrainian ex who I spoke with the day Russia started to bomb. I urged her to do everything possible to leave, but her mother refused. Her brother was expected to stay and fight, her mom wouldn't leave her brother. It's brutal. On the one hand, what do you do if you're Ukraine? Roll over and let Russia progress, so even more people die? Hand over your country? Ideally you could count on your allies to help, but seeing as one country's population is being asked to shoulder the burden, I'm really not sure what to make of it all.
In World War II Europe and the US were democracies that relied on conscription to save democracy and defeat dictatorships.
And they were still bad for doing that.
Yeah, stopping the Nazis turned out bad for everyone. Dumbest fucking statement.
Ripping apart a baby to bring the rain is a bad thing regardless of whether or not it rains. Kidnapping kids under threat of decades of torture and telling them to kill or be killed is bad regardless of whether or not it stops the Nazis.
Forced conscription is a crime on the level of genocide, because often that's what results.
Oh fuck off with that self righteous shit. You'd have to be a complete idiot to make this argument. You have to be really young to still think you can make this argument and not look naive and stupid.
No, I value freedom over something as stupid as a country. If the country is worth defending, people will volunteer.
Kidnapping them and sending them to their death is pure evil regardless of the reason. There is no justification. If your country does that, it deserves and needs to be wiped off the face of the planet.
It's not naive to value human life over a nation.
What freedom if we lost that war? And the Jewish people who would have been exterminated if it went on? The disabled the queer people? Sounds like you only value certain lives.
You're standing on an imaginary soap box, and you can only do that because those people were sent to war.
That's great and all, but your criticism needs to be redirected at yourself. Gay people aren't gods. Neither are Jews. Neither are disabled people.
They are not ubermensch to which we should sacrifice our children to unwillingly.
They are not special. No one is.
If your cause is great you'll have no problem finding volunteers for your war. If not the cause wasn't that great. You don't get to tell others how they should die or what they should fight for. The right of life and death over themselves is the only true right that humans have, and violating that right is the most evil thing; whether it is murder, genocide, or conscription ending in either.
Nazis are awful, they deserve to die. I'll probably die fighting them based on my class and characteristics. But forcing someone in front of their bullets for my life would make me as evil as they are.
Fair enough.
But are you aware that Russia has had multiple rounds of conscription? Have you considered that many of Russia's hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers were not properly supplied and used cynically as cannon fodder against Ukraine - and were therefore obviously deployed under some form of duress? Either as prison convicts or press-ganged off the street in poor remote parts of the Russian Federation that nobody in Moscow cares about.
Let's remind ourselves who is the aggressor here, and who is responsible for the vast majority of the war crimes in this pointless war that could end tomorrow if Russia called off its illegal invasion.
In the light of all this, why would you be so concerned about the aggressed party's respect for legal procedures as defined under its own laws?
Perhaps it's time you stopped watching this "bunch of videos" and starting getting your information from reputable sources instead.
Yes, am I'm not okay with that either. I'm not okay with conscription in Russia, Israel, South Korea, Ukraine or anywhere. I find it odd that I say I'm not okay with conscription, and you and many others chime in with things like... "Did you know Russia has conscription?" Do you think Ukraine should be more like the authoritarian dictatorship in Russia, is that what you're trying to say?
I agree with this, but it is a bit beside the point in regards to conscription. Russia should call of its illegal invasion, but Ukraine should also not be involved in forcing people to go to war against their will else get kidnapped/beat/jailed or worse.
Prob because forcing people to war through kidnappings/beatings/jailing/etc is human rights violations IMO and one wrong doesn't justify another. Have you read about internment camps in the US before? Do you think those were justified cause Japan was the aggressor?
I already explained I assumed some of them could be propaganda, but I did additional research & posted 2 links that include plenty of additional reliable sources. Are you suggesting now that PBS is not a reputable source? Or that Ukraine doesn't do conscription? It turns out many of those things in the videos actually DO happen. I assumed they were propaganda, but it turns out that this is really happening.
It's no secret that Ukraine has conscription. It's a country at war, because it's been invaded. Wartime rules therefore apply. This is also why the election has been postponed, automatically and legally. Historically, many countries have had peacetime conscription. The UK had it until the 1960s for example, France's until the late 90s.
Ukraine had conscription for only for 27-and-overs until recently. It's now 25.
None of this is a secret.
Since you seem especially concerned about the moral aspects of the subject, and cite scandalous abuses, the question is unavoidable: why you are so exercised by Ukraine's situation when Russia is far, far, far worse on all these fronts? It's odd.
Ukraine is supposed to be the democracy. Forced conscription is not something that I believe democracies engage in. What if Ukraine started requiring women to have one baby a year, and if they refused, they force bred them. Would you be okay with that?
Are you an American male between 18 and 25? If so enjoy your forced military service. Failure to sign up for the selective service is punishible by a $250000 fine or 5 years in prison. It's also a requirement for student aid or federal employment. Democracies have conscription too
But I have bone spurs and my parents are rich. Also, what part of me not being okay with conscription anywhere do you not understand? America isn't a true Democracy at this point, more like a corporatocracy mixed with oligarchy. We're also heading towards, if not already there, authoritarianism as well.
I'm really unsure of what your goal here is. Conscription is terrible and shouldn't be needed, we all agree on that. It's incredibly common at least for defense. I am genuinely curious about how many societies don't have it in one form or another.