I just assumed they had an OBD-II port
Honestly it's such a stupid idea to not have a standard diagnostic port in there especially considering the standard has already existed for over 20 years
this post was submitted on 05 Dec 2023
207 points (97.7% liked)
Technology
59665 readers
3476 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
But how u gonna lock down your error codes so that people go to your service center and pay 10x the price of fixing it themselves if you let them just read the error codes? Will someone please think of the poor shareholders?!
My BYD Atto 3 does. It'll tell me battery cell voltages, highest cell voltage, lowest cell voltage, highest cell temperature, lowest cell temperature, maximum power, overall pack voltage, pack current, 12V battery voltage.
There's a fair bit of data there.
It is. But also it makes ev owners crawl back to the dealer or manufactures to get their car fixed
Yeah from a repairability stand point that's probably a key factor
"If we have our own plug and our own protocol then that means they have to use our tool, and if we don't license the software or sell the tool then they have to come back and pay our prices."
Fiat 500e at least has an obd 2 connector, though it seems like it it speaks a different language.
Italian?
Motto bene!
It's me Mario
I would be surprised at that; my understanding is OBD-II is just a breakout for the vehicle's CAN bus.
A bus. There are several in most cars.
Fiat implemented a "firewall" for their port, without the right device you cannot connect to it.
It was implemented to prevent thefts, people hack the car through the ODB port or through the CAN bus connection.
Its easier for them to lock down access rather than fix the fact you can drive a keyless car without the key.
I gotta be honest, it's great and all that obd is a standard, but... How about a simple USB port?
I mean seriously... A freaking USB port.
Established manufacturers do, newcomers don't.
Established manufacturers could technically ditch the port on EV models, but they don't because they have other models which are still ICE, so they need it there. Many of the modules are shared between models, so they use the same bus when it's ICE, hybrid, or EV.
And they already have their tools in the hands of their mechanics that they just need to update OTA so they're compatible with their EV cars... Even if gas cars stopped existing, replacing all of that would be too much of a pain to change the plug...
What would they diagnose?
Combustion Engine? Don't have one. Transmission? Don't have one. Emission Control System? Don't have emissions. Spark Plugs? Nope. Fuel System? No. Exhaust? No. Alternator? No. Battery charger? you can see that on the dashboard. Starter motor? Nope. Battery Status? Also on the dashboard. Vehicle speed... on the dash. Engine idle... no. Air Flow Sensor? No air flow. Intake Manifold Pressure... no intake. Throttle position... only really relevant if you have a clutch or torque converter which EVs don't have (you would notice, very quickly, if the throttle position detected pressing the pedal when you're not pressing it in an EV...
That's the list of standard ODB-II diagnostics. Some cars do more than that, but those are the ones they have to do. And none of them are relevant.
Reporting error codes for specific parts of the battery, errors in the coolant system, error codes for specific sensors throughout the vehicle, etc
Or considering basically all EVs I've seen have some big screens rather than gauges perhaps having the ability to put the vehicle in a diagnostic mode that will display error codes and allow you to check on specific sensors (like read the heath of each individual battery cell for example) without the need for an external device to check
Basically having the ability to fix something that we bought ourselves rather than having to go to the dealership to get it fixed and hope that they'll still service a vehicle of whatever age I bring in
This is also a important example of how much less crap there is in a electric vs ICE vehicle.
Yes the battery materials are mined (so are many other things) but the sheer subtraction of these various mechanisms from a electric vehicle greatly reduces the environment impact not to mention a great reduction in fluids required.
Dealers hate this one hack as the service requirements are fairly low too.
There are also idiots claiming we should ban electric vehicles because they charge on an unclean grid
I actually saw a petition for this is my country's local government website
This is like closing a shop to prevent robbers.
Surely the solution is to make the grid they charge off of sustainable then????
Too expensive. It's easier to just ban electricity, and go back to the good ol' days of natural gas powered appliances.
OBDII has standard info that's the same from one brand to another but it also transfers proprietary info that depends on the reader having the ability to interpret it.
My OBDII Bluetooth dongle lets me get diagnostic codes for much more than emission systems (using Car Scanner app where you choose the type of car you're diagnosing) and it also allows me to reprogram car features with the right app (ex adding an Europe only feature to a Canadian BMW i3 with Bimmercode). It would be perfectly adapted as an EV diagnostic port.
My OBDII Bluetooth dongle lets me get diagnostic codes
Hell I just use mine to collect data in general. Torque (https://torque-bhp.com/) is effectively my second dashboard for all the information that the normal dash doesn't show. I have a hybrid... Half of my dials are related to the hybrid system. Anyone that says that OBD is only related to combustion engines are ignorant.
Yep, so much info we don't get on the OEM dashboard anymore... Oil temp (heck, coolant temp in some cases!), voltage, oil pressure...
On some hybrids I've even seen the RPM gauge (tachometer) missing. And while I understand that isn't directly translatable to electric vehicles... It's just a point that the dash has been getting over simplified for a long time now, taking away knowledge from users.
This is kinda a weird question. What happens when a car has an extra sensor most other cars don’t have? The system adapts. Not to mention, most cars put out some unique info regardless, which is why you need to enter (or auto scan for) the make and model before all values are properly readable.
This is what someone with absolutely no knowledge of info you can bed from those ports is.
So just to name a few:
Battery temp, cell resistance, charge level of each cell, throttle position, abs info, wheel rpm, blendor actuator position, ac activation, heater power draw, "and more".
Imagine having a computer you could never run diagnostics of any kind on, or even get to check into what you thought was wrong. That's half of what an EV is.
I guess everyone assumed like you. Or at least that you could kind of connect to the car via wifi to get these informations without plugging anything.
The existing standards OBD-II and CAN Bus just aren't fit for purpose for ICE cars let alone EVs. Too many keyless cars get hacked by the thief hacking into either system and overriding the lack of a key, even if it means cutting a hole in the boot lid to expose the CAN Bus connection as with some Range Rovers.
Its become a significant problem for a lot of cars. It used to be that they would break into your house to steal your key, then steal the car but now they do not need to do that. It can be done in a couple of minutes on some cars that do not properly protect the CAN Bus cable.
What we really need is a proper public/private key pair for the cars so that all comms is only authorised via the physical key fob. This needs to be touch authorised to prevent snoop attacks. Sticking it on the key would then mean right to repair is not blocked, if the main dealer has it then its a big blocker for right to repair.
It's not that simple. The CAN bus isn't just about unlocking doors and rolling down windows. It also controls airbags and other systems that are time-sensitive. If you're rolling down the window at the same time you get in a crash, the airbag message has to override the window rolling message and inflate those bags in right-the-fuck-now time.
Adding encryption to the mix greatly increases the engineering required, even if it's not used for every kind of message.
Decent encryption can be pretty quick and transparent these days.
Besides, things related to windows, doors, ignition, etc. could be required to be encrypted, while split-second things like air bags could be unencrypted.
This means an attacker who, e.g. bashes your fancy LED headlight to get to the CAN bus within can only do things like trigger your air bags, which isn't very productive for them.
Yes I am aware of that, however the current way that is being looked at addressing the problem is moving the cabling to further within the car, which is just pathetic, like thieves wont just adapt to that.
Encryption really isnt as big a performance impact if it is done correctly, sure it is not cost neutral but ask Range Rover how much reputational damage they had with their piss poor security. They are still having 1 in a 300 brand new defenders stolen after adding what is pretty a traditional immobiliser and tracker.
As an example: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/2006/1/012071
Encryption really isnt as big a performance impact if it is done correctly
"Done correctly" is the trick. This takes careful analysis and design. You don't just pour on encryption and hope everything will be fine.
My i3 has an OBD-II port, and it's not the only EV that has one. Bimmercode can change A LOT of vehicle settings through the port, and software like ABRP can use it to read out the battery level and route you to the next charger when needed.
I'm surprised more people don't realize that OBDII is basically "car USB" at this point... Info can go both ways and a lot more info comes out of the car than it did in 95 when it was introduced AND we're able to reprogram cars using it!
I think it's worth noting that the obd-2 protocol required by law is ONLY for emissions related parameters. Knock, air/fuel ratio, throttle position, things like that. A lot of manufacturers can get data that's not emissions related (like transmission codes) from the obd-2 port, but with a different/extended proprietary protocol that requires a proprietary (very expensive) scanner.
Basically, I think obd-2 should be expanded to include these other systems and ev systems as well. That would standardize ev diagnostics and non-emissions-related ice diagnostics too, which would be a boon for repairability.
It's ridiculous that we're only now talking about standards for electric cars (by the way, for this example, legacy manufacturers already use OBDII in their EV so it's more a "Why Tesla don't use OBDII like everyone else?" question), that should have been done as soon as they started getting popular. Sit down the manufacturers and the government together and come to an agreement on a standard for diagnostics and to charge the car, don't wait over a decade to finally do it!
The latest connector for obd2 was standardized around 1997. Gas vehicles existed long before that.
So because we made the mistake once we need to do it again?
That "mistake" is how the world works. Pretending otherwise is ignorant.
Saying something is ridiculous is the same as pretending it's not how things work?
This is the best summary I could come up with:
But most call an ALDL the OBD-II port because it provides everyone from engineers at proving grounds to dealership technicians to shade tree mechanics a connection to the vehicle's software and diagnostic systems.
Modern onboard diagnostics, or OBD-II, became a standardized and mandatory part of every automobile sold in the United States, starting with the 1996 model year.
The ALDL port originated from General Motors in the early 1980s in its pursuit to produce systems and diagnostics for its cars to meet new government emissions regulations.
By the late '80s, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) got involved and mandated that all 1991 model-year or newer cars sold there must include an onboard diagnostics system to manage and control emissions.
But as EVs become more mainstream, they include a variety of sensors and systems to keep everything running optimally, oftentimes more than any internal combustion engine-powered vehicles.
Part of California's sweeping set of rules for cars sold in the state requires EVs, hydrogen fuel cells, and Plug-in Hybrids to follow a similar diagnostics standard, much like OBD-II did 30 years earlier.
The original article contains 839 words, the summary contains 181 words. Saved 78%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Only one thing will change it: regulation
This will change when will get modular cars and open source versions of common modules. I.e. never.