Superheroes are pro-police propaganda. They teach you to be afraid of those who disobey the state rather than yhe state policies that drive impoverished and precariats to desperation.

What does Spidey do with the suspects he catches? He leaves them to get processed into the prison system where they can be used for slave labor, are subject to abuse by the staff and occasionally are killed by thirst or by getting braised in the showers.

White collar crime causes way more loss of life, more destruction and more cost than all the petty crime by multiple orders of magnitude and yet Spidey still goes after street goons. _The same for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Ironman and Captain America. If they're not fighting their own rogues gallery, they're hunting street thugs.

They're certainly not interested in the plutocrats who have captured our governments.

[–] [email protected] 61 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is a weird take when "really rich guys doing depraved things" is a recurring villain trope across an awful lot of comic books and take up a huge portion of the narrative. Insane wealth is often framed so powerfully in these contexts that sometimes it can parallel superpowers.

The green goblin and doc oc are just really rich guys that do fucked up things! It's implies that spidey puts goons and henchmen into the justice system because of course he does, what else is he going to do? His other options are killing them or just letting them get away with whatever the insane rich guy wants to do, which is often some kind of terror attack on NYC. And those both suck too.

Spidey is too busy trying to literally prevent some business tycoon from idk opening a demon portal under central park to also advocate for prison reform.

Just let the stories be fun.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The villains appear after the fact.

Spider-man, the Batman all the rest fight crime because (generic) crime is the problem. As with James Bond and SPECTER (SPECTRE?), there's a point when the USSR and the cold war was too complicated to be an easy-to-punch baddie, even with the gulags and tanking, so James Bond got a Moriarty, a nemesis to fight instead. The superhero rogues galleries are what happens once it becomes awkward that all the superhero does, is as Garth Ennis put it beat up poor people. And so Jokers and Doc Ocs and Red Skulls are invented when the real Nazis are no longer a threat.

When we stick superheroes into the modern western world, the pretense is that the system mostly works, essentially that Ronald Reagan isn't around gutting social programs, turning prisons into (pretty literal) gulags, fueling the war on drugs and otherwise making the federal and state justice systems into even more of a system of oppression than they were after prohibition (specifically to target non-whites, at that). In the DC and Marvel worlds, police are not overly brutal. Prisons are not overwhelmingly unhumanitarian (nor are they impacted). And yes, criminals really did make some avoidable bad life choices (rather than IRL getting steered into the school-to-prison pipeline).

Though the silver age, the system ran by magic capitalism, even as IRL industries were capturing the regulatory agencies that were supposed to prevent them from driving precarity and poverty to 80%+ of the nation (and thereby fueling the white Christian nationalist movement that is taking over the federal government and many states today).

Through the dark age (that is 1985-1995-ish), Batman sometimes killed, but Frank Miller noted that the thugs were so awful that they deserved it. The criminal element were painted as literal undesirables you could do anything to without moral concern. Sure, Arkham Asylum was a literal dungeon and the jails were infested with rats, lice and scabies (as they are IRL) but it was okay not to give half a fuck about the inmates, because we know what they did.

And yes, even when the current MCU villains have a point, they are obligated to offer a solution that involves decimating the public, so that they can be waved away as too radical, and the Avengers can go back to serving the establishment plutocracy (and not the public). Heck, even Adrian Veidt (Ozymandias in Watchmen ) killed half of New York in order to stop a nuclear holocaust.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Christ you know how to suck the fun out of escapist media don't you.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

If being able to point out the biases within a medium sucks the fun out of it, then there are bigger problems that belie the medium... or the fun.

To be fair, the biases of comics are typical throughout movies and television as well. As I noted elsewhere, the GCPD in Gotham what is supposed to be the nadir of police corruption is actually less corrupt and more concerned about public welfare then every police department in the United States. Considering all the content produced by Dick Wolf consumed by Americans, it's no wonder we have cognitive dissonance when we see video footage of real-life officers gunning down detained suspects or escalating non-violent incidents.

There are many ways to approach this. My wife still enjoyed true crime television recognizing that the world portrayed is not the one we live in. You can continue to read comics, but look for ones that take steps to move the dialog forward. It's what some folks did regarding the wizard game.

You can also look to recognize that you are really in a cyberpunk dystopia in which our plutocratic masters want to keep you harmless and then exploit you as a laborer or soldier until you are depleted and need to be replaced, and your own story is how you break out of that paradigm. So there's grounds in all our lives for hero stories.

[–] [email protected] 43 points 1 year ago (4 children)

... you might be reading too much into a silly superhero. He fights a man with mechanical tentacles named 'Doctor Octopus'. He has an enemy who is literally just a stage magician called 'Mysterio'. There are several animal-people. One villain is literally made out of sand.

It's... generally not that deep.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The MCU is one of the biggest moneymakers in Hollywood. It is literally Disney's flagship media line and curiously when they attained Spider-man from Disney, the first thing they did was pull Spidey out of poverty and put Aunt May on the Avengers payroll.

It may not be that deep in the comics, but it's still teaching kids the way to fight crime is to punch them in the face, break their legs and put them in an impacted and inhumane prison system.

Just like Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush and Dan Quayle taught us we should do as they were subsidiIng the prison industrial complex and pushing the War on Drugs.

I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy Spider-man. I read Spider-man as a kid and my grandson does today. He also fantasizes about punching baddoes in the face, and I can only hope he'll realize that's fantasy before his first real encounter with law enforcement.

[–] [email protected] 17 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Alright but 99% of my memories of superheroes as a kid weren't them fighting crime, but them fighting supervillains, which is generally the main draw for kids.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It still instills a dynamic that the best way to solve disputes is by force and that some parts of the public are undesirable by fiat.

Given the current affairs of the US in which half our federal officials are trying to outlaw trans folk, I'm hyper-aware that this is a bad message to give.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It still instills a dynamic that the best way to solve disputes is by force

How often is it that superheroes start the violence? Or are you suggesting that smiling as your teeth are knocked down your throat should be the reaction, here?

and that some parts of the public are undesirable by fiat.

... given the predilection of comics for redemption arcs, antiheroes, the struggle of being different, and the fucking X-Men, I'm gonna have to press X to doubt on that.

Given the current affairs of the US in which half our federal officials are trying to outlaw trans folk, I’m hyper-aware that this is a bad message to give.

You're hyperaware that a message that isn't being sent is bad. Okay. I'm very aware that Teletubbies advocating genocide is bad. Good thing that's not at all relevant.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

How often is it that superheroes start the violence? Or are you suggesting that smiling as your teeth are knocked down your throat should be the reaction, here?

Here in the US, law enforcement escalates to force far more often than they encounter someone who is already aggressive, so it raises a question why villains in comics so consistently engage first?

The propaganda is in what is implied. Redemption arcs are the exception not the rule, and the implication is that most villains don't get redeemed.

Now maybe it's because they know their audience wants to see brightly colored supers knock the tar out of each other, and that might be true, but in the context of police work or vigilantism, it does paint human civilization as a lot more violent than it is. How often do heroes see violence break out during their day to day life (rather than, say, tracking it by police radio?)

I get that you don't want your hobby criticized too sharply. Still, have you seen Spider-man stopping Proud Boys from harassing a drag queen? Have the avengers interposed themselves between a BLM demonstration and the police armed with CS-gas and riot munitions? (I really don't know if they've done these things. I'd be delighted to see right-wing culture wars cross into the MCU, but Disney has their own opinions about their right to continue capitalizing.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago

Do you actually read comics as it seems like a lot of your assumptions are taken from adaptations like the MCU. Of course these versions of the hero's and their stories are watered down and the edges sanded off as they have to appeal to as many people around the world as possible to justify their production costs.

The actual comics deal with these kinds of issues a lot and tend to have a pretty progressive message thoughout these days.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Here in the US, law enforcement escalates to force far more often than they encounter someone who is already aggressive, so it raises a question why villains in comics so consistently engage first?

... because superheroes aren't cops?

This is not in any way a normal reaction to a image of a woman in a catsuit called Black Cat singing showtunes from the musical Cats.

Take your hangups somewhere else.

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[–] [email protected] 21 points 1 year ago (7 children)

That's literally so wrong.

Why did Spidey become a hero in the first place? Because the cops couldn't find the killer, so Peter did and killed the guy. Which was not justice.

So many heroes of NY in Marvel are focused on justice and the concept of what is justice. The Punisher kills, Daredevil punishes, Spidey is learning. Sometimes he lets people go, otherwise he believes imprisonment is an alternative. Sometimes there is an option that don't fit either.

The point is Spider-Man knows killing isn't justice and the cops/system doesn't either, he literally is an enemy to police always. He simply is trying to make a dangerous world a little more safe in his local area.

Fuck out of here with your fake ass political take. Especially such a terrible one.

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[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Iron Man has plenty of stories where his enemies are other rich businessmen. The plot of his first two films have those bad guys. Captain Americas stories tend to be more about international espionage than street level crime, especially since Brubakers but reinvention in the early 2000s. Batman/Bruce Wayne canonically pumps tons of money into social programs for Gotham. When was the last time you picked up a comic? 1965?

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[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Stories of heroes are as old as written word and likely older.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

And it surprises me that we don't introduce new paradigms. As Red (from OSP noted) The Scarlet Pimpernel was an early superhero (mostly with unearthly levels of panache) who rescued French aristocrats from (those evil, murderous) revolutionaries.

Part of the problem is that the narratives we get are made by companies that don't want us to think about why we have super-agencies like SHIELD, and who are they serving (hint: The same people that are served by CIA, DHS and special forces we send to undeveloped countries).

Imagine, for instance, a citywide industrial strike (because our teachers / freight drivers / baristas / dockworkers / etc.) are underpaid, get no sick leave and have shitty healthcare for themselves and their families. They can't live like this, but the company management is beholden to shareholders who want their money (and will litigate to keep dividends high). Management thinks (much as in Hollywood right now) they can just wait it out, even if the economy is tanking, the workers will start getting hungry. (Yes, it's a literal siege.)

But the neighborhoods and developed mutual aid organizations to help the strikers and keep them from being forced to return to work...

So...the state governor sends law enforcement to bust up mutual aid stations. Violently. With dogs and shooting. (ICE does this kind of work frequently, as part of Customs Enforcement That's why they were in New Zealand to raid the Kim Dotcom estate)

And then street-level superheroes (like Spider-man!) emerge to defend the mutual aid groups from the police anti-riot teams. (Eventually the companies will hire mercenaries, much the way they did to attack the water protectors stopping the Dakota Access Pipeline, which would become the opposing rogues gallery)

This is a superhero story I could get behind, since it's actually about serving the public good, rather than an establishment that wants to replace us with robots or AI generative systems ASAP.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Why don't you write and publish that story if that's what you personally want to see? I imagine you're not the only one. But criticising the exiting publishers for not following your wants in a story is silly if people are buying the content that they are making.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Superman's primary villain is literally a white collar criminal that uses the system in order to stymie efforts to hold him accountable. A lot of superhero media could stand to be more critical of the police and prison system but it's a little more complicated to dismantle capitalism than it is to foil violent crime and respond to accidents and disasters.

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[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago

Well, there are still villains like Lex Luthor, Kingpin and Amanda Waller to represent the actually evil part of society. They're just a minority because goofy over-the-top villains in silly costumes are more entertaining for the kids.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (4 children)

would you rather they kill the villains than send them to prison?

[–] ThatWeirdGuy1001 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The supervillains yes. It's why I don't like most superheroes.

Like Batman for instance. Batman has the blood of every single innocent person the joker killed on his hands because he refuses to solve the problem.

"iF yOu KiLl A kIlLeR tHe AmOuNt Of KiLleRs ReMaInS tHe SaMe!!!11!1!1"

Not if you kill all of them.

And especially not if said killers have killed hundreds/thousands.

[–] qarbone 8 points 1 year ago (6 children)

Why hasn't the Gotham justice system executed him then? Why not put the onus of them? Or any GCPD cop turning off his bodycam to shoot someone who deserves it for once?

Batman generally doesn't kill because, in all the interesting comics, he realizes that he is mentally unwell and, if he starts down that route, he won't know where he ends up. That's why there are so many stories of plans Batman made to stop himself (generally be suborned by someone else and putting him and others in immediate danger). He's a nutcase with a lot of money who's afraid of himself but trying to do the right thing.

Your stance only holds any water when the villains are literally unable to be physically managed by anyone except one of these demigods.

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[–] EndlessApollo 8 points 1 year ago

🤓

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Avengers: defenders of the status quo

[–] [email protected] 19 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I think comics and the movies are afraid to change the baseline world too much because then it'd be less relatable and require more explanation. Part of the fantasy is imagining super heros in our world. That becomes difficult if the baseline world of the comics and movies is drastically different.

That being said, I'm sure the MCU hugely sanitizes it's messages. For example, their solution to systematic racism in falcon and the winter soldier was a just a speech saying to do better.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But it's really fucked up that they never change anything. Fortunately for the viewer every "villain" kicks a puppy at some point making every social criticism invalid.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 year ago

Seriously. I guess compelling villain now just means objectively right, with a side of mass murdering innocents.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Neither of these characters are currently on the Avengers. Spiderman only was during Bendis New Avengers run but has never been a traditional part of the line up.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Sorry, Superheroes: defenders of the status quo

Edit: for more info please read "The utopia of Rules" by David Graeber

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's alright, I'll just keep reading comics and enjoying them instead rather than sucking the fun out of everything.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I guess it depends on what you consider fun. I can enjoy reading Heinlein or Clancy even when I don't agree with their biases, even when I see prejudices pervasive for the era.

But even the need for escapism is telling, since it implies what we're escaping from. It's much like the rap genres that talk about having extravagant amount of wealth and women, and the suffering to which that appeals is palpable.

Beating the tar out of the bad guy, or seeking some heinous bastard get shot in the face by Bruce Willis appeals to the same thing that true crime fiction does (police procedurals: Dragnet, Law and Order, anything by Dick Wolf) they reassure us that justice gets done. Even if by a brightly colored fantasy vigilante. Or in the latter case, that justice is meticulously fair and impartial, and still gets its man.

[–] Silvia 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

ha, what a funny moment from a spider man comic!

what the fuck is going on in the comments.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

You can’t just enjoy comics without someone spouting their political nonsense on the internet.

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