An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the "ML" influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.
Serious posts, news, and discussion go in c/Socialism.
If you are new to socialism, you can ask questions and find resources over on c/Socialism101.
Please don't forget to help keep this community clean by reporting rule violations, updooting good contributions and downdooting those of low-quality!
0. Only post socialist memes
That refers to funny image macros and means that generally videos and screenshots are not allowed. Exceptions include explicitly humorous and short videos, as well as (social media) screenshots depicting a funny situation, joke, or joke picture relating to socialist movements, theory, societal issues, or political opponents. Examples would be the classic case of humorous Tumblr or Twitter posts/threads. (and no, agitprop text does not count as a meme)
1. Socialist Unity in the form of mutual respect and good faith interactions is enforced here
Try to keep an open mind, other schools of thought may offer points of view and analyses you haven't considered yet. Also: This is not a place for the Idealism vs. Materialism or rather Anarchism vs. Marxism debate(s), for that please visit c/AnarchismVsMarxism.
2. Anti-Imperialism means recognizing capitalist states like Russia and China as such
That means condemning (their) imperialism, even if it is of the "anti-USA" flavor.
3. No liberalism, (right-wing) revisionism or reactionaries.
That includes so called: Social Democracy, Democratic Socialism, Dengism, Market Socialism, Patriotic Socialism, National Bolshevism, Anarcho-Capitalism etc. . Anti-Socialist people and content have no place here, as well as the variety of "Marxist"-"Leninists" seen on lemmygrad and more specifically GenZedong (actual ML's are welcome as long as they agree to the rules and don't just copy paste/larp about stuff from a hundred years ago).
4. No Bigotry.
The only dangerous minority is the rich.
5. Don't demonize previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
We must constructively learn from their mistakes, while acknowledging their achievements and recognizing when they have strayed away from socialist principles.
(if you are reading the rules to apply for modding this community, mention "Mantic Minotaur" when answering question 2)
6. Don't idolize/glorify previous and current socialist experiments or (leading) individuals.
Notable achievements in all spheres of society were made by various socialist/people's/democratic republics around the world. Mistakes, however, were made as well: bureaucratic castes of parasitic elites - as well as reactionary cults of personality - were established, many things were mismanaged and prejudice and bigotry sometimes replaced internationalism and progressiveness.
ID: A scene from Legally Blonde of a conversation between Warner and Elle in the corridor at Harvard, in 4 panels:
Warner asks "What happened to the tolerant left?"
Elle replies, smiling "Who said we were tolerant?"
Warner continues "I thought you were supposed to be tolerant of all beliefs!"
Elle looks confused "Why would we tolerate bigotry, inequity, or oppression?"
Geez copium much
I like this but I'm not even sure it's such a paradox - if you are tolerating people who do not follow that social contract then can you call yourself a part of the tolerant group yourself? It is a necessary part of being tolerant to reject the intolerant.
It's not a paradox because nobody says that absolutely anything anyone does is fine. There are always rules to acceptable behavior in society. The "paradox of tolerance" is a strawman.
I once heard a professor of physics tell us that paradoxes were just questions posed incorrectly (paraphrasing since we weren't speaking English, sorry if I wrote it in a confusing way) and I've never stopped thinking about it that way
If one tolerates all actions other than those causing harm to non-consenting others (basically "adults can do whatever they want with themselves and with other consenting adults") which is sort of the traditional maximum tolerance boundary, one will tolerate many practices which, whilst not amounting to causing harm to non-consenting others, do spread intolerance.
From where rises the Paradox that such choice of putting one's boundary of Tolerance at the maximum level possible actually ends up in aggregate reducing Tolerance.
Making it a social contract reduces the boundaries of tolerance by the minimum amount possible that's needed to just stop Tolerance from allowing the very tools of its destruction to work.
Under "social contract rules", at a personal level those who are NOT tolerant of intolerance are, very strictly speaking, being less tolerant, but at a Systemic Level they are actually making there be more Tolerance in aggregate than if they had tolerated the intolerant.
PS: I actually work in Systems Design (amongst other things) and it's actually quite common for certain ways of doing things which are perfect at the individual level will in aggregate cause systemic problems making the whole function worse, so the optimal choice for the whole is actually to use a less optimal individual choice. Thinking about it, I would say that pretty much all Tragedy Of The Commons situations are good examples of that kind of thing.
This doesn't eliminate the paradox. Why does the contract exist in the first place?
It's a moral standard. If moral people didn't decide that tolerance was a good thing for society, the contract wouldn't exist.
So yes, thinking about it as a contract sidesteps the paradox, but the paradox still exists.
So Karl Popper was still right and society shouldn't tolerate the intolerant.
Basically, I want my various types of weirdness tolerated by others. Others want their weirdness tolerated. We mutually agree that it's beneficial to each of us to tolerate each other. This gets expanded to other forms of weirdness. So long as it doesn't significantly impinge on others who dont want it, we have no reason not to be tolerant of others. This is the social contract.
Intolerance inherently impinges on others. While it might not impinge on my personal weirdness, I will still fight against it. I know it could be me next, and I would hope others would stand with me then. In turn, I will do that for others, both because it is right (in my mind) and because I don't want to be targeted next.
I will default to assuming people are happy with the contract. If they demonstrate disagreement, or contempt for the contract, then I withdraw its protections.
There's no paradox. Although, Karl Popper's words are as good as any.
My point is, no one said "the left have to tolerate everything." In fact, not tolerating capitalism is the defining feature of all left leaning ideologies. More so, where you are on the scale of leftism is based almost entirely on the extent to which you won't tolerate capitalism. Rhetorically, for what possible reason would the left ever have to tolerate nazis, in the first place? Who said they did? Where are they? Of course, no one said they did.
I found it's best to, rightly, just reject the false premise of it being a paradox out of hand. The type who use it know its BS too.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing
~ Malcolm X
Tolerant left? Leftists barely tolerate other Leftists!
Splitters!
Damn Leftists! They ruined the Left!
other 'leftists' post legally blonde dialogue as 'lefty meme' content..
Is Legally Blonde not left enough for you?
its more an aversion to cliquey identity memes in general, but yeah, legally blonde is part of it
Legally Blonde taught me that attractive people are able to do the type of things that regular people can do.
I hold it very near and dear to my heart.
Did you also get the part about how people with stereotypical high fem gender expression who are often described as "ditzy" by a misogynistic society can be intelligent even though they like "girly" things?
That wanting to dress a certain way and naturally having a certain personality or way of speaking doesn't define who you are or what you can do or how good at your job you are?
That in a male dominated field you should be able to express yourself even though the industry wants you to conform and "tone it down" and "not be so emotional" and also smile less but not too much less or else you're "bitchy"? That diversity is good and helps bring in new ideas/perspectives?
No that part went over my head.
The problem I found with the American left this past year as an outsider looking in, is that they all splintered into groups and started seeing the other group on the left as “just as bad as trump”, nobody was “left” enough to be an ally for anyone’s rigid tastes. The left fought among itself for labels, while the conservatives on the right were united.
I understand a lot of it for the younger left had to do with gaza but to anyone else, it’s clear Netanyahu and Musk and other oligarchs planned this out and the American left bought it and let Trump win.
All you can do is unify and strengthen and cut out fascists and fix your country, stop trying to be world police if you can’t even fix yourself.
'But being world police is the only thing that helps us forget about our problems!'
-People who consume too much propaganda
This is a direct result of the same propoganda networks that fed trumpism. Primarily, youtube and tiktok because they feed the populate with video after video that the algorithm chooses for them. It amplifies any divisiveness we have to split us into factions.
Yeah, I’ve started watching some YouTube lately for the first time ever, and it certainly seems to want me to be conservative incel.
Previously I never watched YouTube because the ads were so intrusive and annoying, now I’m about ready to give up because most of what the algorithm shows me is offensive. Whether it truly thinks I’m conservative, such as based on demographics it shouldn’t have, or knows I’m not but thinks stirring up outrage will keep me coming back, they might be wrong
ah right, its not that genocide is wrong in all cases, its that the dumb left was the victim of propoganda, which you are clearly too smart to be influenced by. Which is why you voted for genocide.
Makes perfect sense.
If only the dumb left had voted for genocide, Biden the hyper zionist would have been reelected and he for sure would have stopped the genocide, right?
And then you go on to say:
stop trying to be world police
How is funding a genocide "being the police"? oh.... wait I see. You mean the US police go around doing crimes with impunity and no accountability. OK, you're right on that one.
Every time I hear or read that phrase, all I can think is "BITCH I NEVER SAID I WAS TOLERANT OF YOUR SHIT"
We tolerate the shitty uncle who gets drunk and says stupid shit at thanksgiving.
We punch Nazis in the face.
I don’t tolerate maga folks. I just kind of ignore them, and don’t allow them to be a part of my life.
I do have republican and conservative friends. I do not have any maga friends.
I do have republican and conservative friends.
So you'll tolerate a little bigotry, as a treat.. 🙄
Yes. Outreach is an important part of helping people change their minds.
It's the same reason you shouldn't fuck with Jehovah's Witnesses. By treating them badly, you increase the feeling of isolation they have towards broader society and shove them further into the clutches of the cult.
You can disengage from political debate and only engage in infighting with your own party or what not, good for you.
Considering most peoples get their politics from their parents and it’s more a football team mentality, I think you’re a little off.
For what it's worth, a non zero amount of republicans and conservatives didn't vote for Trump, probably in no small part due to the people in their life who remind them of their humanity. You might not be surprised to hear of estranged family becoming more radicalized by the right once they've been cut off. I have people in my life who are conservative and will never believe that abortion is acceptable, but I have been able to share stories of where it was medically necessary and they have changed their mind on supporting a total ban. Is that great? No, not really, but it's certainly something. I don't know that I'd call these people "friends" because I don't really like them or share with them in the way I would my actual friends, but I have had them in my home. Unfortunately, changing hearts and minds requires a little buy in. It's not always safe for everyone to do, and I get that, but people love to show stories of people becoming deradicalized while hating on people engaging in deradicalization. There are people out there who say "conservatives are good people they're just misguided", and I don't really believe that, but I do believe they can BECOME good people. Obviously, some are a lost cause, but some can be pulled back to reality. I had a Hollywood is all trans/they're hiding the true science (not a flat earther, just not a believer in the globe??) coworker I eventually turned into a socialist. That doesn't happen overnight, and if they don't at least consider you friendly, you're not gonna see any movement.
You don't get it. They are just voting for fascism, but they are not fascists themselves. It's totally cool. Nothing to worry about.
For what it's worth, a non zero amount of republicans and conservatives didn't vote for Trump, probably in no small part due to the people in their life who remind them of their humanity. You might not be surprised to hear of estranged family becoming more radicalized by the right once they've been cut off. I have people in my life who are conservative and will never believe that abortion is acceptable, but I have been able to share stories of where it was medically necessary and they have changed their mind on supporting a total ban. Is that great? No, not really, but it's certainly something. I don't know that I'd call these people "friends" because I don't really like them or share with them in the way I would my actual friends, but I have had them in my home. Unfortunately, changing hearts and minds requires a little buy in. It's not always safe for everyone to do, and I get that, but people love to show stories of people becoming deradicalized while hating on people engaging in deradicalization. There are people out there who say "conservatives are good people they're just misguided", and I don't really believe that, but I do believe they can BECOME good people. Obviously, some are a lost cause, but some can be pulled back to reality. I had a Hollywood is all trans/they're hiding the true science (not a flat earther, just not a believer in the globe??) coworker I eventually turned into a socialist. That doesn't happen overnight, and if they don't at least consider you friendly, you're not gonna see any movement.
The whole idea that Tolerance is a Social Contract seems to be what works best: One is Tolerant towards others who are Tolerant and those who are not Tolerant are breaking the Social Contract of Tolerance and thus are not entitled to be the recipients of Tolerance from others.
Tolerance as a Principle doesn't work well exactly because of the Paradox Of Tolerance which is that by Tolerating the Intolerant one is causing there to be less Tolerance since the Intolerant when their actions are tolerated will spread Intolerance (as painfully demonstrated in Present day America, especially with Trump).
The left doesn't even tolerate the left.
The farther left I lean, the less tolerant I become.
Honestly real talk for all my inclusion and belonging folks: we really gotta work on our vocab.
Was the term “tolerance” ever anything but confusing? In my lifetime I’ve only ever heard it used by conservatives dragging out this straw-man. Did “tolerance” once connote open-mindedness, graciousness, charitable judgment, acceptance/inclusion, or anything other than “weary endurance of something unpleasant?” Legit curious.
Similar examples include “consent” (sexual). Why are we pretending its primary non-figurative meaning isn’t legal or contractual when literally trying to say it’s the opposite? It has a strongly passive connotation, to acquiesce to a request, allow an event to occur, or go along with a plan — as in “tacit consent,” “consent form,” “consent to search,” and so forth. So it sounds gross, like “fine I guess you can do sex to me.” I know we tried to fix it with “enthusiastic consent” but seriously has anyone ever filled out a consent form with enthusiasm? What we really mean is active, reciprocal desire. The point is to give someone what they want if what they want is you, not to secure their consent to get what you want from them, so why the fuck do we insist on still using a word that’s in so many ways the opposite of what we mean?
I even think Crenshaw’s identity is confusing, because most people want to think of personal identity as something discovered or self-actualized, but intersectionality’s dependence on lived experience implies that to some extent it’s always something that happens to you. It’s how other people perceive you and the labels they give you that furnish these identities. But that probably sounds like a good thing if wearing those labels helped you bond with others similarly labeled, offering you a community or roots. Otherwise, calling these labels “identities” might sound like letting others define who you are instead of deciding for yourself. Gender identity for example is usually approached as an outward expression of one’s true self which can entirely reject the labels others give. But to ask someone “how do you identify” concerning something like ethnicity or race is not treated the same at all. To an outsider, these theoretical constructs might sound preposterous simply because we insisted on using the wrong words for our ideas, then overloading or bending their definitions to the point that a person needs a graduate seminar to actually parse the intended meaning.
Edit: to be clear, I’m only against the word choices, not the ideas. It’s because it feels like our messaging is hamstrung by insisting on using the wrong words as jargon with wildly different in-group definitions that to outsiders can make us sound inconsistent, confused, or at least difficult to understand. /rant
tolerance /tŏl′ər-əns/ noun
consent /kən-sĕnt′/ intransitive verb
No, it was never confusing, the right's propaganda engine ceased on it, called it confusing.
Whatever message we put out will be "mired" in confusion as long as the right media factory deems that a useful statement to make and their undereducated masses will just blindly agree.
Being intolerant of society destroying behaviors seems exceptionally reasonable.
tolerance is a contract not a gift
No Elons allowed
If you aren't independently wealthy, you're being taken advantage of.