The question is: If you don't own your body, who does?
The answer is The State.
this post was submitted on 12 Sep 2024
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Nah, it's corporations that own you. The State has just been made into their puppet.
Mostly because of general distrust in "The State" and thus people distancing themselves from interacting with it.
The OP makes a clear vision of bodily autonomy, but I question whether the apparent author, Pete Alex Harris, believes it absolutely.
Lets explore what "Bodily autonomy is an essential and unconditional liberty" allows:
- the easy one is legal abortion (and I absolutely agree with this)
- legal suicide
- legal consumption of any and all substances even those that can cause massive bodily damage or death. This can mean drugs of course, but could also mean choosing to work in asbestos mines if you so choose to without the law being able to stop you or your employer.
- legal selling of your organs. You have two kidneys and two lobes of your liver, those should be up on ebay if you want them to be?
- legalizing cottage industry of selling your own sperm or ovum at retail if you want
I actually agree with some of the above should be legal, but the possibilities of coercion for groups at risk to be forced into some of these to survive raises some troubling ethical questions. If we accept the above absolutely, are we creating markets for human suffering?
You can legalize consumption of anything you want to put in your body, but criminalize sell, purchase and possession.
You can legalize the individual working in unsafe conditions if they so wish, but criminalize any one from running a company with unsafe conditions.
You can legalize consumption of your own brrast mill cheese, other that of others, but criminalize companies from selling it.
I don't see how those 3 things infringe in your bodily autonomy. People can own their bodies but there should be limits on what you can do to others.
I don’t see how those 3 things infringe in your bodily autonomy. People can own their bodies but there should be limits on what you can do to others.
And this is the rub. Your argument about legalizing the individual consumption level, but criminalizing the means to for the individual to consume is how we arrive at the abhorrent situations today with abortion in some states:
- You can legalize consumption of abortion services for your body, but criminalize the doctors from performing any procedures that could cause an abortion.
Under your wording, the woman could own her body, but the law has made it illegal for what "others" (doctors in this case) can do to you. Your approach effectively destroys the absolutes of bodily autonomy stated in the OP.
Yes, there are problems. I was particularly focusing on those 3 you pointed out. But I also think abortions goes beyond bodily autonomy.
First there's the level of being allowed to do it. It's illegal in some states to abort if you find the means.
Then there's the right for medically assisted safe abortion if you so desire. I see that as a human rights issue but not as a bodily autonomy issue.
But maybe I'm being too literal?
But maybe I’m being too literal?
I don't think you're being too literal. That's the avenue I'm exploring too.
Thats what I don't understand the absolute nature of the OP picture/quote because it only refers to bodily autonomy is an "essential unconditional liberty". Restrictions on being able to purchase drugs would be a condition to exercising that "essential unconditional liberty bodily autonomy" wouldn't it?
If the avenue to consume the substance is illegal, then how is bodily autonomy unconditional? It isn't. Further, the OP picture/quote cites the acceptance of this flawed premise as a precondition to discussion with them. These kind of topics are rarely compatible with absolutes like the OP picture/quote suggests. Life has more shades of gray rather than the easy absolutes of black and white.
Yeah, this. If there is an employer with an asbestos mine, and an employee in the asbestos mine, one of them should be protected by the law and one of them should be required by law to provide a safe work environment.
All of the unethical dilemmas I see here arise because having money isn't a choice, you have to have it, and people can then decide to sacrifice their autonomy for money.
So, yeah, bodily autonomy is an unquestionable right, but so is the right to exist. And when both of those rights aren't adequately protected, they eat each other.
I think you're going too far away from the idea of body autonomy if you get into economics of buying and selling parts of your body. That requires something outside your body as an influence and isn't in the same scope that the author was making.
I think you’re going too far away from the idea of body autonomy if you get into economics of buying and selling parts of your body.
Then what IS the scope of "bodily autonomy is an essential unconditional liberty". Placing limits like economic interactions sounds like a "condition" which would be in conflict with the quote. My argument is the author's statement is too broad.
That requires something outside your body as an influence and isn’t in the same scope that the author was making.
I have no context for the quote besides the picture. If you know its context, I'd be interested.
You're putting everything in a market context which naturally introduces economic coercion because money is essential for life in modern society. This is not an argument against bodily autonomy. It's an argument against capitalism. People can and do donate their organs, noone has a problem with that. The problem is when poor people have no other choice than to sell their organs, and hence, no bodily autonomy.
People can and do donate their organs, noone has a problem with that. The problem is when poor people have no other choice than to sell their organs, and hence, no bodily autonomy.
That would be in conflict with the OP picture/quote then, which is why I agree the OP picture/quote is too broad, but it is presented as an absolute.
We can substitute sex/prostitution here too. People can and do have sex with one another for free. The problem is when poor people have no other choice than to sell their bodies for sex. However, there are nations/cities that have highly regulated prostitution to protect sex workers from violence and exploitation.
Does this mean that sex work should be legal because of the OP quote that the person can choose what to do with their body or does it mean that sex worker's bodily autonomy should be conditional meaning not legal and the OP quote is not valid?
Whether or not prostitution is legal has no bearing on the question of whether a person is free to have sex with someone, ie their bodily autonomy. Only whether they get paid for it. You're confusing two different thimgs.
I disagree. "Bodily autonomy" means you own your body and can decide what to do with it.
If the legal system says you can't engage in sex for money, then the legal system has governance over what you can do with your body. That doesn't meet the OP quote of "Bodily autonomy be is an essential unconditional liberty". It is now conditional. You have autonomy, unless you want to do X with it. That's a condition.
That's not a criticism of bodily autonomy, that is the criticism of work. In other words, it's a criticism of capitalism again
Can you truly consent if the alternative is not having money and everything that entails? When the alternative is starvation and homelessness? Sex work is not meaningfully different to work in general here
If the legal system says you can’t engage in sex for money, then the legal system has governance over what you can do with your body.
Nope, it has governance over what you can do with your money, your ability to have sex is unaffected. You can't seem to separate the two things.
I hope you made this specifically for this conversation because its hilarious and awesome! Its art! You nailed the conservatives dog whistle symbols and narcissistic ideas. Well done sir/madam!
Nah, I found it on [email protected] a while ago.
I love the pack. It's so ridiculous and yet relatable
You've equated absence of regulation of body to absence of regulation of business entities without defining the reasoning (which will fail a low effort challenge if you present it). You then extend that error to examples of sale of body parts and a flawed question.
You’ve equated absence of regulation of body to absence of regulation of business entities without defining the reasoning
OPs quote is clear unless you'd working to redefine the word they used: "unconditional". I don't have to provide the reasoning. OPs quote doesn't allow any reason to change the outcome. How is "regulation" which presents specific conditions compatible with the OP's original quote of "unconditional"?
"Unconditional" obviously violates the social contract. My error was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not participating in meaningless mental masturbation. Cum soon. You've better things to do.
Good arguments should stand up to scrutiny. If this one fails its because the premise is flawed. I'm not claiming to have all the answers, but I'm pointing out that the OP's quote stood strong on language but weak under observation. You took up the banner in defense of the OP quote. I don't know if you lost faith in the OP argument or just don't recognize its flawed.
My error was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not participating in meaningless mental masturbation.
I'm exploring an idea someone else presented. I'm not sure why you engaged if you weren't interested in doing the same.
The right wing fascists want you to own nothing.
Funny enough... The left wing fascists also want you to own nothing
They want everyone to own everything. It's kinda weirdly not owning anything in a way, but still having the things you need lol
I get this and don't get how the libertarian party in my country seems more aligned with our nutty conservatives. I feel like they bought into that no government thing. Granted I would say it starts with though which in law is expressed first as speech but next is certainly the body which is far before land.
I think many people arrive at libertarianism not by following core principles, but instead by following their reactionary personal desires.
Business owners become libertarian because eliminating taxes and worker protections is great for their short term profits.
"Traditional family" men become libertarian because they want to wishcast the fantasy of being a strong, independent, agrarian citizen with an obedient wife.
Pedophiles become libertarian because eliminating age of consent laws would legalize their sick desires.
funny thing is in terms of philosophy im apparently pretty libertarian. I mean its not all that surprising as I flirted with it in college but the extremes man. Took a political compass test run by a european group and I cam up about halfaway between center and far left and far libertarian. Which is fair for nowadays. I still think the world has gone way right and authoritarian and I should come up much closer to center in any sane world or if that test was made at the end of the 70's.
My feeling has always been that most alternative political theories that get attention really are a good way to do things, until you get to the application stage. Communism is a Utopia on paper, until you involve actual humans with greed and the wish to be better than the person standing beside them. Pure libertarianism, which I will hear no argument is not just anarchy in practice, is also fine and good, until you remember that we live in a society that has to account for the lowest denominators, and of the fact that, unless they're forced to, nobody's going to band together to build roads, and infrastructure, and help Grandma pay for her medications. Libertarianism is a reactionary outcome to the knee jerk reaction of someone looking at their paycheck, and seeing that the government took money that they feel like they earned all by themselves.
yeah the compass basically is left/right authoritarian/libertarian which again I view as the correct interpretation but modern libertarians do seem to be about their own niche advantage. I end up falling halfway down im pretty sure due to free speech and stuff in the questions.
Absolutism