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It continues to astound me this has to be stated as a political position, as though objecting to Israel committing mass genocide against Palestinians somehow makes you an antisemite.
Mass killing of innocent people is always wrong, no matter who is doing it.
The problem is that actual antisemites jump into the debate and work to linguistically push legitimate criticism of Israel into real antisemitism. You can see it right here, all over Lemmy, and presumably this thread. It's incredibly obvious, and it's also incredibly obvious that those people want to short circuit this conversation by making the issue black and white.
That's why many people are very hesitant to engage with this even if they do have real concerns over how Israel operates.
And on the other side of the coin, hard-right Israelis work to paint any criticism of Israel as antisemitic, regardless of legitimacy.
So on the one hand, you have antisemites using this as an opportunity to blame all the world's ills on tHe (((gLoBALiStS))) (I really hope that came across as sarcastic enough), and on the other, you have ultraconservative Israelis using the first group to lump the people saying "please don't do a genocide" in with them. And on top of that you also have Hamas doing the goddamn Goofy "and I'll fuckin do it again" meme, along with a bunch of people in Palestine who are literally taught antisemitism and hatred in the classroom, while Russia, Iran, and the same goddamn Israelis painting everyone as antisemitic pour money into the group that would genocide Israel back in a heartbeat. And caught in the middle of this category 5 shit hurricane are a bunch of innocent people who just want to be treated like human beings with equal rights, and to be able to go to the goddamn grocery store without worrying about getting exploded by a piss rocket / laser-guided cluster bomb made by Lockheed Martin.
I'm so goddamn fucking sick and tired of everything with this. Literally the only "good guys" in this entire fucking 70-year conflict are the noncombatants on either side of the Gaza border wall trying to go about their day and whose entire lives are reduced to a casualty sheet and a propaganda blurb, while both sides just keeps fighting and killing because perverse incentives mean it's the only way both Netanyahu and Hamas can cling to power, innocent life be damned.
Russia, Iran, and the same goddamn Israelis painting everyone as antisemitic pour money
This is an important thing that many people ignore or don't know. Most wedge issues are stoked by groups with money on each side. Even if you think something is a moral issue, large issues have money behind them. If they didn't, they wouldn't be contentious because everyone would support only one side.
Iran and Israel are regional political rivals. Neither one actually wants or is ready for a war, so they support proxies that do dirty work for them. Both countries are run by conservatives and animosity and fear help them with domestic politics. The political parties in power in Iran and Israel both benefit from Hamas being scary, and anti-Semitism existing in the world.
I think the requirement for “have to be stated it as a political position” caveat is rooted in malice which has historically skewed the discussion in favor of controlling the narrative in the interest of the agenda at hand, in this case is blind support for Israel.
I remember having to use the same set of qualifiers back in the day during the “War on Terror”, when arguing that mass bombing campaigns would only lead to more extremism. I’d have to state that I didn’t “support terrorism” and the idea was to have an objective discussion around the policies in question.
It’s a tact to suppress valid criticism and garner support.
It was apparent then and it’s apparent now. We cannot have open discussions in the interest of actual progress when folks are implicated into a myopic tribal view of the situation for having an opinion that goes against the common narrative.
It’s no more antisemite to object to Israel’s actions than it is to be pro genocide to vote for Biden. But this is what the Trump trolls have chosen for everyone to be upset about now.
It’s this every four years. There’s always something to not vote over.
Yeah, you would think that it would be pretty simple and straightforward for most people to grasp, yet, the need to condition being pro-not-killing-innocent-Palestinian/any civilians with a disclaimer of not supporting Hamas and not being antisemitic within the same breath exists in conversations with most folks. It's absurd. It's like being against both what was done to innocents by Hamas on October 7 and what Israel is currently doing to innocents is impossible for many people to wrap their minds around (or at least, that's how the national conversation is framed in the US). Neither action is an acceptable means of achieving goals (stated or otherwise), but Hamas and Netanyahu have long been in a toxic codependent relationship. My favorite is the look on "pro-Israel" peoples' faces in instances where they're informed that the person they just called an antisemite for daring to be against the bombing of innocent children and others is Jewish (whether by religious practice or genetics). It's bullshit.
But it makes money for defense contractors. How can it be wrong? — Several governments
The worst part about criticizing Israel and Biden is the quality of people who think you agree with them on other stuff...
I criticize both a lot, and have gotten some horrendous replies from people who assume we share other beliefs.
I also hate me some interracial marriage brother /s
Clarence Thomas, is that you?
The longform divorce scheme really should be talked about more,
This man is clearly committing a cry for help! /S
something tells me he wouldn't be assuming they share beliefs in the first place
I'm confused by your comment. As Thomas is rather known for his hypocrisy. Maybe I'm just not reading you right.
But in all seriousness, Stalin was actually a pretty great dude
Against genocide -> antisemitic
Against antisemitism -> islamophobic
Shame on you OP, shame on you.
Reminder that Zionism was built upon antisemitic myths of Jews and non-Jews cannot live together.
Zionism =/= Judaism
I hate Zionism, and while I am not Jewish, I have a few friends of that faith and I will not see them slandered, mocked, or made to feel unwelcome in this world.
Same here. I am partly jewish. My great grandmother died in the Holocaust. And I am very anti zionist. And definitely not antisemitic. I have a ton of books on jewish life and history.
I think most people can separate Jewish people from genocide from the country of Israel.
The only people confusing the issue want to make it an issue. Quashing pro-Palestine protests claiming they’re anti-Semitic when they’re not. Questioning the country of Israel’s actions is anti-Semitic when it’s not.
The only people confusing the issue want to make it an issue.
This is key.
There are people who are anti-Semitic, and there are people who are islamophobic, and those people all view the opposition as sub-human. They will don't want peace because they want to win.
And then there are the people who benefit from the conflict, and will stoke the fires on both sides. They don't care who wins, who dies, who suffers, because while there is violence and death, they can benefit themselves.
Any progressive engaged in a discussion needs to recognize whether they are talking to a zealot or a profiteer. The former might be reasoned with. Supporters of Israel or Hamas might be shown the error in their thought process.
I'm a professional hater, I spread hate all over the world
equal opportunity hatred is real progressivism
if you truly believed that... you'd post this in helvetica. Or comic sans.
If I was Israeli leadership, I:
Wouldn't have ignored clear, specific intelligence reports warning of an imminent attack.
Would've had stronger border security, if national security was truly a concern. (what good did all that IDF do if not at the point of entry of their most imminent threat?)
Wouldn't have played into Hamas' hand and retaliated in knee-jerk macho-man authoritarian fashion. In the event I didn't prevent October 7th I wouldn't have invaded Gaza but instead condition Palestinian statehood on Fata or PA taking over while simply utilizing the military forces committed to invasion to defending the narrow border.
Wouldn't have committed dozens of October 7ths against the civilian population in response, dwarfing the original terrorist attack.
Wouldn't have created the conditions for radicalization to fester in the first place by, you know, annexing land, killing more civilians both pre and post October 7th, imposing blockades, and actually supporting the most radical groups while ignoring the less-radical (reminds me of how the US handled Syria).
Nuttyyahoo's actions are so counterintuitive I have to question whether this is all just an example of the shock doctrine.
but instead condition Palestinian statehood on Fata or PA taking over while simply utilizing the military forces committed to invasion to defending the narrow border.
But the whole point of Israel nurturing Hamas was to destroy the authority of Fatah and the PA so they WOULDN'T have to negotiate for an actual two-state solution.
And the whole point of ignoring the intelligence about the impending attack was to have an excuse to flatten Gaza. At this point I wonder if Israel even needed an excuse, considering the shit they're getting away with anyway
Don't forget the bonus benefit of getting Trump elected!
I don't think the problem is the lack of real progressiveness, I think the problem is with an attempt to gaslight it from both extremes. Just got banned from worldnews (again) on completely gaslit reasons because of criticism I was making against the Act.IL remnants operating over there. Downvoting into oblivion isn't enough for them anymore.
I've also noticed comparable instances of shadow removals from the other side of the coin in [email protected] where they similarly gaslit their reasons. I've sort of decided if both sides are going to be this putrid, then I'm going to step out of their propaganda wars, and gotta say, the Mossad side is rapidly losing ground regardless of the advantage they might have had.
Just want to point this out, but Palestinians are technically Semites.
I'm against both obviously, but I thought it was important to point out that the Jewish people themselves are anti-semitic for their genocide.
Just worth pointing out: the Israeli government are anti-Semitic. Many Jewish people (especially outside of Israel) are opposed to this genocide.