I thought online gun sales already required a background check, isn't that why they have to be shipped to an FFL? So that they can run a background check before ownership is transferred to you.
this post was submitted on 11 Apr 2024
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This is correct. In addition all sales at gun show from a licensed FFL to a customer currently also require a background check. Currently the main two kinds of transfers that don't require federal background checks nationwide are private party sales and gifts. Eg. Selling your neighbor a shotgun or gifting your dad a hunting rifle. I believe these were both carved out exceptions as a result of the limitations on the Feds due to the commerce clause. Several states have tighter restrictions.
The private sales were excluded because they didn't want to give access to NICS to just anyone. States with more restrictions require you to pay a dealer or go to the sheriffs office to get approval.
I would expect too that the inability to effectively enforce those expectations was a motivating factor. The last time I bought a gun off some one I don't know we went to a FFL to comply with state background law. Really only because neither of us knew for sure if the other was a cop. If you know the other person. It can be very hard to prove a transfer ever happen.
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They do.
How long before our corrupt Supreme Court strikes this down?
In before “requiring a trigger pull for every shot infringes on the use of constitutionally protected arms”
It’s hard NOT to think about how they could make it even worse than expected.
I believe the framing is something like buying locally on armslist.com, where the buyer and seller agree to meet up face-to-face to make the sale. No mailing it.
Reading the article and a few others, this new regulation seems like election year posturing that doesn’t actually change much for the average person. The regulation is expanding who must register as an FFL from “making their livelihood from gun sales” to selling guns “predominantly to derive a profit”. Whatever that means. But it seems like it is specifically meant to exclude the occasional sale by a private person, which means that a private person happening to sell a gun at/near a gunshow or through armslist seems like they are still in the clear.
Where that line is will surely be hashed out in court, but it seems like the simple sale of a single gun from one person to another is unaffected.
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Obviously, this is woke Nazi communist satanic slavery.
That's putting it lightly.
It seems like this has less to do with where (gunshow) or how (internet) the guns are being sold, and more about the volume being moved.
The “loopholes” are still intact for the private person making an occasional sale. These regulations are looking at people selling, in any way, guns in volumes that the government feels should be regulated as an FFL.
Unsurprisingly, the article’s title and the general framing leads people to focus away from what the regulation is actually doing. It’s a story and a political move that manages to bring out the emotion in both pro and anti gun people, but where the change to the legal reality seems honestly boring.
The occasional private party sale from a "personal collection" isn't what this is designed to stop. It's intended to close the loopholes that required no background checks in certain transactions, which:
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Allowed people to function like online dealers, buying and selling volumes of guns, but claiming they are selling from personal collections.
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Allowed for the very common "gun shows," which are frequent and widespread, to be used by #1 to sell guns to people in person not just online but to large, interested, and gathered crowds of people. These things are basically pop-up malls for guns, with a mixture of legitimate firearm businesses running background checks and tables of guns from a "private collection."
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It prevents the "fire-sale loophole," where gun stores, often ones that lose their license for other violations, close their business and liquidate their guns at steep discounts without background checks by claiming that the guns revert to private collection.
The purpose of this rule revision is to get rid of those loopholes, which is how the overwhelming majority of guns sold without background check happen.
The occasional sale between private parties from a personal collection, defined as a collection whose purpose is study, comparison, exhibition, or in pursuit of hobby like hunting and sport shooting isn't the issue here. That doesn't appear to be where most guns involved in crime that were purchased without a background check originate from.
Yes I read the article. I was pointing out how that was the case rather than, as the article title frames with its title, something to do specifically with posting guns online, or selling privately on gunshow grounds.
The rule, which clarifies who is considered to be “engaged in the business” as a firearms dealer, will take effect in 30 days’ time, and follows a three-month consultation period that attracted almost 388,000 comments to the website of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF).
...
I mean, it's better than nothing, but still doesn't do anything about the people outside the gun show with a trunk full of Glocks they're selling for $100 over sticker price.
If a gun show table was for a store, they always had you do a background check.
This is a huge loophole, but this isn't fixing it.
Hell, we don't even enforce straw purchase laws when it involves a minor, moving the guns over state ligns, and murdering multiple people...
Even when the illegal buyer testifies on the stand that he intentionally planned and completed a straw our hase to illegally gain possession of a gun.
All the laws in the world don't matter if no one enforced them.
We need a background check on every sale, and to prosecute people for flagrantly breaking gun laws.
Incremental progress is unsatisfying and better than nothing. And this one is a little satisfying so I'll take it.
I mean, it’s better than nothing, but still doesn’t do anything about the people outside the gun show with a trunk full of Glocks they’re selling for $100 over sticker price.
It makes it easier to prosecute them for not being private sales, so not nothing.
It doesn't tho. They can just say they're furthering their collection. Feds would have to show a strong pattern of sales and if the person was buying and selling out of their own collection it gets gray.
all the things you complain about are already illegal. it's not that things aren't enforced. it's that CRIMINALS DON'T FUCKING FOLLOW LAWS.
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To all the gun owners/advocates out there who used rational thinking to back this: Thank you.
I've bought firearms online for years. I don't know how the loophole works and at this point I'm afraid to ask.
The article’s title is misleading. The regulation isn’t “closing” the “loophole” of buying a gun without a background check from somewhere like armslist where you meet up in person for the exchange.
The article title, and some politician comments want people to think that this a loophole to be worried about, and that it has been closed in a “historic” move.
The regulation is going after people selling in such a volume, in any manner, that the government deems that they should be FFLs.
In practical terms what that volume qualifies as is still vague, but the manner or location of sales isn’t something being touched.
Buy this vase and get a free gun
The Justice Department isn't stupid. The purchase of the vase is obviously incidental in the transaction.
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