Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
I'd like to wonder how Nitrogen Asphyxiation, which I know from my LN2 safety training is extremely dangerous due solely to the fact humans can't tell it's happening until they faint and die, can't be used because it's inhumane and dangerous, yet lethal injections, electric chairs, and toxic chambers are perfectly fine to use.
I don't support the death penalty/capital punishment, but if the punishment is the death itself, torturing prisoners is plain unnecessary
It's prolly the most humane form of execution and prolly companies that supply lethal injection that are kicking up a fuss. If I had to choose a way to go, nitrogen all the way.
All those companies refuse to make the "medicines" used in it, actually. In this rare instance, the private sector pushed back and effectively ended lethal injection as an option.
Hence AL looking elsewhere.
I'm with you guys tho, N asphyxiation is peaceful...but as we all know, the cruelty is inherent and fundamental to capitalism. Hence the propaganda campaigns.
Dunno anyone killing me against my wishes, peaceful or not, seems like cruelty.
So, the Swiss suicide pod lets you kill yourself with nitrogen gas, and apparently that's absolutely fine and painless.
Alabama thinks about using nitrogen gas, and it's cruel and unusual?
WTF am I missing here? Or is it all just the BS hyperbole of US politics?
Well clearly the difference is the Swiss suicide pod is for suicide, and in Alabama it is state-sanctioned murder.
I can understand disagreeing about the death penalty but the difference between choosing to do this to yourself vs it being done to you regardless of your feelings is a dramatic difference, is it not?
You're forgetting that this person is going to die by the State's hand regardless of the method. Given that, how is nitrogen asphyxiation more cruel than lethal injection?
I'm not condoning the death penalty, just confused why someone would say nitrogen asphyxiation is cruel and unusual when in another context it's desirable.
I'm not forgetting that, not really. I was just breaking down the comparison between assisted suicide and the death penalty.
I'm against the death penalty but if we are going down that route nitrogen hypoxia seems the sanest and safest way to me.
First off, I'm 100% against the death penalty, this is only an argument of pragmatism. Nitrogen is by far the most simple and humane method at the states disposal to perform executions. The rapid hypoxia will leave the victim unconscious within a minute and death will happen shortly after. It requires minimal equipment and essentially no training to be effective with this method. People who perform lethal injections receive no training and fuck it up way too much for it to be considered safe. If the state is going to execute people (which they shouldn't) they should seek to limit the amount of suffering and margin for error and inert gas asphyxiation is a good choice for both of those. If they wanted to make us easier on the victim they should consider giving them an oral sedative like versed shortly before the execution. Regardless, they'll be out in under a minute so it still minimizes pain and suffering
The authors argue:
Nitrogen execution forces prisoners to participate in their own death, which they consider cruel
Delivery by mask is unproven and could lead to problems (like CO2 buildup).
the protocol is heavily redacted and many other executions have been botched before, which does not inspire confidence.
a lack of oxygen can lead to convulsions, which can prolong the execution if the airways are affected
in case of a failed execution the prisoner is entitled to medical help. This could be difficult or even dangerous to administer in an environment of little to no oxygen
mice did show a fear response when executed with nitrogen
While I do agree with those points and oppose lethal punishment myself, I would not expect the arguments to make a big legal difference. All of them do apply to other execution methods as well, and usually much worse. Personally, I would prefer a death by nitrogen to any other method on offer, if there is to be an execution.
You are missing the willingness to participate. One wants to die, the other does not. It's the same difference between a boxing match, and beating someone up.
My God this article is full of stupid, awful arguments. Seriously some sort of agenda behind it. I hate the death penalty. However, if they're going to do it anyway, nitrogen hypoxia is definitely the most humane method.
in my opinion - and I'm just some guy - there is no humane way to kill anyone who doesn't want to die. It is a contradiction in terms. Therefore regardless of the method, it is simply "not humane."
Fine, then the authors should argue that, honestly, instead of arguing against the particular method and thus dishonestly implying there's some other method they would find acceptable. It's a bad-faith "control the conversation" tactic that has no place in legitimate journalism.
Agreed. I should have specified "more humane than other methods".
I'd argue that waiting 80-100 years is much more humane and just as effective
Air forces around the world use nitrogen inhalation to simulate the effects of hypoxia caused by high altitude decompression for training.
From that we know for a fact that it is absolutely painless all the way to loss of consciousness.
We also know that it is perfectly safe to have people in the same room who do not participate in the exercise.
And we also know that you don't need a perfectly fitting mask if the had mixture is supplied in it at positive pressure.
The author is reaching at straws for arguments so he makes them up. He's imagining possible problems or downsides and calls them as immediately disqualifying without ever bothering to look for their validity or solutions.
I'm against capital punishment. But if it has to be done this seems to be the least cruel method to do it by far.
Is he arguing that this is cruel and unusual punishment because they have to continue breathing? Otherwise they will feel the CO2 build-up if they hold their breath. I'm sorry, but if capital punishment has to be a thing, I'll take Nitrogen poisoning over any current method.
I'm torn about this. I'm against execution in any event, but the idea that this is somehow worse than other methods is a silly proposition. Good job on the article author for making it sound as awful as possible, but there's a lot made of small things that are by and large better than other techniques that are considered constitutional. I strongly feel like this is more about preventing this particular execution than making sure the best method possible is used.
And that's great. This execution should be stopped, but since it's legal for now it would be a shame for this one case to deny this method to other prisoners who would otherwise be subject to lethal injection or electrocution, both of which are far worse.
I'm against capital punishment as well, but this is how I'd plan to go out.
The author's argument actually seems pretry flimsy to me. If the issue is that it's cruel to make a prisoner an active participant in their own execution, you could easily resolve that by putting them to sleep before applying the nitrogen. Breathing is only voluntary as long as you're awake; once you're asleep, you're no more in control of breathing the nitrogen as you are in control of your heart pumping a lethal injection throughout your body.
Absolutely, the argument is crap, but they do a really good job of framing it to sound awful. Like, you die of suffocation. The nitrogen is harmless and breathing it makes you more comfortable. They make it sound like people are going to harm themselves by holding their breath to keep the deadly stuff out of their lungs, but it's harmless and they don't live any longer by not breathing it, so all they are doing by holding their breath is to make the experience more miserable.
But the article careful tiptoes around anything that doesn't serve the narrative. So they did a good job at propaganda, but an awful job at journalism.
So many arguments in here are basically "I don't like the orphan crushing machine, but I guess if we have to have it, I'd rather the machine be on the fastest setting."
There's no "execution method" argument that can exist with an anti-capital punishment opinion.
There's nothing cruel about nitrogen hypoxya death, it's one the most peaceful ways to die actually.
But a Republican state implemented this, so we’re going to consider it cruel and unusual.
In a veterinary euthanasia study comparing death from pentobarbital injection to nitrogen gas inhalation, most animals exposed to nitrogen gas developed early convulsions. In a prior physiology experiment exploring human adaptations to hypoxia, healthy volunteers breathing pure nitrogen often experienced seizures within 17-20 seconds.
I'd love to read these studies if available. But the author forgot to reference their sources. So I don't know what they're referring to
What ridiculous reasoning! They are required to participate … by breathing normally? Year somehow participating by your heart beating is ok?
They are against it because they don’t want to set a precedent allowing it. Death penalty opponents have come as close as they ever have at abolishing it by lobbying drug makers to stop providing standard drugs. Nitrogen gas, however, is cheap and easy to obtain. Right now the only argument against it is that it’s “experimental” (despite plenty of accidental deaths providing ample data), but once successfully used, that argument is gone.
If it were just about execution being painless, we'd execute people by detonating a block of C4 taped to their skull. 100% guaranteed instant and painless. But it's not about that. It's about those who oppose execution coming up with every reason to abolish the practice. I don't think there's a single proponent of capital punishment opposing nitrogen gas.
My personal opinion is that capital punishment should be reserved for a new standard of proof - beyond any doubt. If there's the slightest doubt, the sentence drops to incarceration.
"Beyond any doubt" would mean abolishing it. It is an impossible standard
Any case held to the standard of "beyond any doubt" would be trivially defended. It is theoretically possible we're all in the matrix and the whole case was just faked by our all-powerful machine overlords. Is the doubt reasonable? No. Is it a doubt? Yes
I'm in favor of abolishing the death penalty. We shouldn't do it with roundabout semantics and sham trials though
I agree in principle because I think the universe is absurd and complex, but I disagree in practice because most humans form a consensus on the basics of reality far more than we might think.
It's reasonable to doubt reality from a philosophical point of view. Even though you might be able to make a very well-reasoned case about how humans lack free will using quantum physics and the debate about determinism, we don't see people escaping murder charges this way.
If you have a murderer who was caught on camera and arrested on the scene, one who left a manifesto and confesses to the crime, I think we could use "beyond any doubt" pretty safely here.
My bigger concern is that people would still abuse this though. They'd say they had no doubt about cases where there weren't any witnesses, the accused is denying it, etc. They'd be giving the death penalty to innocent people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time because they had absolutely no doubt the person did it.
So yeah, there are cases where beyond any doubt would make perfect sense but I'm still against capital punishment because I've seen what one crooked police officer or racist judge can do to a person's whole life.
If you read this article, start from the halfway point. The first half is absolute fluff.
Arguments against:
Author also argues that since other states don’t use this method, it shouldn’t be used… which feels more like a chicken and egg problem.
The thing is, we already know exactly how nitrogen affects humans, and we know due to industrial accidents.
I'll preface this next part by saying that I don't think the death penalty should exist at all, and that when you give the State the power to kill, that power will be abused.
So, addressing the author's "concerns";
You can only hold your breath for so long. The stress of doing so would be no worse than the stress of knowing you're being executed. You can make the exact same stress argument about any form of execution.
Ill fitting masks are a concern, but nitrogen by itself is not a concern in a well ventilated room. The prisoner dies, not because of the nitrogen itself, but because the nitrogen displaces oxygen. Normal air is about 78% nitrogen. Any other concerns can be alleviated by having oxygen sensors in the room.
Saving someone from nitrogen hypoxia is actually pretty easy if you get to them quickly. And again, a well ventilated room means that it will be completely safe for everyone (except the guy wearing the mask)
Mice are not humans. Humans cannot tell when there's more nitrogen than there should be. That's why nitrogen is so dangerous in an industrial setting.
Basically, the author comes off as having failed every basic science class they ever took.
I guess my biggest question is if this only works well with someone who cooperates, why are they not allowed to put the person under with anesthesia first, then administer nitrogen as part 2?
Anesthesia needs a highly skilled resource to apply it correctly, and most of them refuse to be involved in an execution, for obvious reasons. This is one of the major cause of errors in lethal injection executions.
I am against the death penalty across the board, but this article is bad. It makes a lot of claims about nitrogen asphyxiation without citation, and one thing it does cite contradicts what they write.
There's tons of hand wringing about how the prisoner would be an active participant in their execution. By breathing. They spend an awful lot of time on this point, and it's almost silly.
There's some points about how responders would be able to safely enter the room in case of problems. A portable oxygen source with a mask would do.
And then there's this huge misrepresentation for the one scientific study they actually cite:
A group of Swiss researchers conducted research in 2019 on the comparative humanity of nitrogen versus carbon dioxide in euthanizing mice. Their conclusion? That nitrogen did produce a fear response, raising questions about its ethical use as a mouse execution method, and that further studies would be required to determine whether nitrogen would be a suitable euthanasia agent for mice.
Here's the study they cite for it: https://boris.unibe.ch/136198/1/pone.0210818.pdf
Abstract from there: "Carbon dioxide (CO2) is one of the most commonly used gas euthanasia agents in mice, despite reports of aversion and nociception. Inert gases such as nitrogen (N2) may be a via- ble alternative to carbon dioxide. Here we compared behavioural and electrophysiological reactions to CO2 or N2 at either slow fill or rapid fill in C57Bl/6 mice undergoing gas euthana- sia. We found that mice euthanised with CO2 increased locomotor activity compared to baseline, whereas mice exposed to N2 decreased locomotion. Furthermore, mice exposed to CO2 showed significantly more vertical jumps and freezing episodes than mice exposed to N2. We further found that CO2 exposure resulted in increased theta:delta of the EEG, a measure of excitation, whereas the N2 decreased theta:delta. Differences in responses were not oxygen-concentration dependent. Taken together, these results demonstrate that CO2 increases both behavioural and electrophysiological excitation as well as producing a fear response, whereas N2 reduces behavioural activity and central neurological depression and may be less aversive although still produces a fear response. Further studies are required to evaluate N2 as a suitable euthanasia agent for mice."
The tone is completely different. The study thinks N2 would be a good candidate for euthanasia in mice. They do conclude that there is a fear response, but less so. Far from "raising questions about its ethical use as a mouse execution method", the authors think it's worth pursuing as a more humane method.
Again, the death penalty should be abolished. This article is garbage.