this post was submitted on 29 Sep 2023
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A sleep scientist/professor named Matt Walker has a podcast about, you guessed it, sleep. He talks about this and how it's very unfair to people who are biologically programmed to get tired later.
He goes on to describe scientific proof of the effect this has on their sleep and the impact to their health. It's sad really, but his hope is to raise awareness and acceptance of the night owl's schedule.
This attitude is maddening. I am diagnosed with delayed sleep phase syndrome that will turn into a non 24 hour rhythm if I let it. I've worked with sleep doctors all over the country, most recently Duke.
I'm lucky that my work lets me start at 11am, I don't get enough sleep those days but better than it could be.
Unfortunately I'm on call every other week, so forcing my clock to reset isn't an option. It takes me 6 to 10 weeks to get to societies ideal sleep schedule, and a single night of interrupted sleep to undo all that work
The weeks I'm not on call are my weeks with my daughter, who has to be at school at 730 and there's no bus for her to ride.
Either week, my schedule is fucked and I'm in a haze all the time. Helpfully anyone who finds out about it just tells me to excercise more (makes no difference, ive done a lot of testing and exclusion), stop caffeine (tried it), stop using screens of any kind after work (been there), or any other thing that they think I am doing wrong and causing the problem.
I did not expect to rant that much... I completely agree, science means nothing in the face of feelings and preconceived notions.
I feel ya. I've got the same thing. Luckily I'm still young and don't have kids so I can at least adjust my schedule consistently, but man it sucks having to get up at 6 am on the weekends. The real frustrating bit is that I could totally get up 2 hours later if only I could WFH consistently. But corporate doesn't like remote work so I have to go into the office at least 2 days a week to sit at a computer all day and program. Wonderful world we live in
holy shit I just randomly found this post a year later and spent the last few hours reading about DSPD and non-24. I've just always chalked it up to "being a night person" but reading the wikipedia pages was like a description of my life for the last 25 years.
but now that (I think) I know I have it... it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot that can be done.
Many of us just don’t move enough.
It's not only about being tired enough to fall asleep early. If I stick to a 10pm-6am sleep schedule I feel exhausted during the day, and by early afternoon I'll be falling asleep. It's like being jetlagged permanently; my body simply doesn't want to keep to that schedule. It's not just an "oh, you need to stick to the schedule long enough to adapt and get into a proper routine" situation either - it's something I struggled with for years while I was in school and university, despite getting enough sleep.
It's amazing how much better and more energetic I feel - physically and mentally - now I'm able to keep to a sleep schedule that suits me. Obviously exercising is a good thing, but early/delayed sleep phase syndrome are real things.
This. I work physically, get up just before 6 am, return tired as fuck and can easily go lights out at 8-10 pm half of the year. Doesn't help. If I wake early, I feel tired all day.
Yeah, whenever I get up early, like 5 am, I wind up feeling sleepy and groggy all day and need a nap when I get home. Yet I can get up at 7 and feel fine all day, not need to go to bed till 11 pm.
I once had to do 12.5 hr shift work.
Going from 7 am to 7:30 pm wasn't too bad compared to the nightmare that was 5 am to 5:30 pm, which meant I had to get up by no later than 4 am.
Same amount of time but the phase shift just completely messed everything up because my body just refused to comply that early in the morning.
So, what is your current sleep schedule?
Not OP but mine is 00:00 - 06:00.
I can’t fall asleep at 22:00. But my ideal schedule if I work permitted it would be 02:00 - 10:00. When I’ve kept this schedule before it’s literally night and day how better I feel.
I could go to sleep however early you like but I’d still be wrecked at 06:00.
Typically around 04:00-12:00 for me. Fortunately, I have a job that fits nicely around that, so I'm in a pretty good place overall, but when I do have to try to shift to more "normal" schedules it really wreaks havoc on my energy levels and mental clarity.
I've tried all sorts in an attempt to make a "normal" schedule work for me, like sleep monitoring, therapy, sleeping pills, and just being really over-the-top about my sleep hygiene (like not allowing screen usage for X hours before bed, no drinking or eating X hours before bed, etc). I can sort of make a "normal" schedule stick but I never feel good for it. And it takes constant work because my body naturally wants to gradually drift back towards a 4am sleep time, and I find going to sleep earlier than previous nights very difficult so once it starts slipping it usually takes an all-nighter to get it back to where I want it.
Like I said, I've generally got things pretty good right now with my job and lifestyle working around my sleep schedule. But it'd certainly be a lot easier if society didn't think I was lazy and was able to accommodate me (and other people with less "normal" sleep schedules) a little more.
Still not op but Working days i wake up at 2000 head to sleep around 10 - 12 Days off i gwt up at 6 and generally go to sleep around 2200 - 0000
wow! i'm sure the neuroscientist-sleep expert never thought of that! he should have checked with you.
Shit, man, now I want to see a paper authored by some rando PhD and JizzmasterD
If I worked a physically intensive job from 8-4 you can be sure as shit I'd be dead asleep by 10pm at the latest.
Yeah but the world needs data analysts and programmers.
That's what I do, except 6 to 230. I have to always take naps after, then go to sleep again at like 11 or 12. My sleep gets super fucked lol.
I think this is a good point, even if unpoppular. Physical activity can help a lot with sleeping. Colleagues, please, notice there's "many of us", not "all of us" in the comment before you downvote.
I think part of the unpopular reception is that those of us that suffer intractable sleep issues are told this constantly by people who just don't understand it or are just out to shit on people they think are lazy.
From my parents convinced that I was useless and lazy, to co-workers who are sure I'm just too stupid to be able to sleep well, to partners I've had in the past... Always explaining to me how I'm doing something wrong, and surely if you just try to sleep you can. No. No I can't. No matter what I do, even sleep aids are only effective for a week or two at the most.
It's insulting to constantly hear people tell me that I just need to do this, or that and I'll be able to sleep. Yes, I see it says many of us, but decades of being shit on for something we can't control takes a toll.
I've struggled for 30 years to sleep 'acceptable' hours. At best, I can wake up early if I have to, and I do a lot because my child's school starts way too damn early on the weeks she's with me, and I'm on-call every other week when she's not. That means I get 3-4 hours sleep most week nights. I'm too old for this shit, but I have no choice and no options. We know that not sleeping enough can have severe effects on physical and mental health, but if you aren't on a 'normal' schedule that goes out the window.
I'm a night owl and a morning person who works on a farm/cattle ranch. I had a 27 hour shift for the first time last month and I was kind of ecstatic about it. I felt proud when I got home and crashed. I also have a lot of willpower though so it's easy for me to push through work stuff with very few freaks.
I guess this is my way of saying that everyone is different.
You had a 27 HOURS SHIFT ???
sigma grindset bro
Alpha Sigma Sigma grindrset.
Those cows ain't gonna, uh, cattle themselves.
Welcome to farming. During harvest, 36 hours straight isn't uncommon. And driving back and forth lifting and lowering a combine header is far from the sort of thing that keeps one alert.
That ain’t healthy bro. You can’t catch up on sleep.