this post was submitted on 26 Sep 2023
1078 points (98.7% liked)

politics

19145 readers
2854 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Judge has ruled that Donald Trump committed fraud for years while building the real estate empire that catapulted him to fame and the White House.

Judge Arthur Engoron, ruling Tuesday in a civil lawsuit brought by New York’s attorney general, found that the former president and his company deceived banks, insurers and others by massively overvaluing his assets and exaggerating his net worth on paperwork used in making deals and securing financing.

you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Viking_Hippie 124 points 1 year ago (7 children)

So why the hell is this a civil suit rather than a criminal one?? Last I checked, bank fraud, insurance fraud, and other fraud are all illegal crimes that are against the law!

[–] elbarto777 23 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

Not that I don't agree with you, but I just want to point out that not all cases of breaking the law are criminal. For example, if you run a red light, a cop won't throw you in jail for it. You'll get a fine, though.

Of course, what Trump did should put him in jail.

But seeing his empire dismantle must be more devastating to his ego than the possibility of prison.

[–] [email protected] 18 points 1 year ago

Fraud is a crime that can come with jail time though.

[–] Viking_Hippie 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

if you run a red light, a cop won't throw you in jail for it. You'll get a fine, though.

Traffic violations such as that are considered civil offences, not criminal ones. Trump keeps being found guilty of federal crimes in civil courts. There's no way that someone less rich and powerful would get the same treatment.

[–] elbarto777 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You have a point. If I keep running red lights, even after paying fines and having my license suspended, I will be thrown in jail.

[–] EmpathicVagrant 17 points 1 year ago

Only if you’re a poor.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I am also confused. Why does the attorney general put forward a civil suit in the first place? Civil court is for parties to seek damages or the other party to do or stop doing actions against contractual obligations.

Or did Trump defraud the city of New York and it is seeking compensation?

[–] Viking_Hippie 14 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Or did Trump defraud the city of New York and it is seeking compensation?

Yeah, some of the "other fraud" is tax fraud, so in a very real and direct sense, he defrauded New York. Still doesn't make sense for it to be a civil suit rather than a criminal one, though.

Must be nice to be rich and powerful enough for your decades of major crimes to count as civil infractions 😮‍💨

[–] DarthBueller 8 points 1 year ago

Quite simple. Civil liability standard of proof is preponderance of the evidence, which is far less than the standard of proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

The type of suit depends on the type of law violated and the type of injured party. Civil law vs criminal law, etc.

[–] singron 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

They could potentially bring a related criminal suit later. I'm not an attorney, and there are a lot of specific rules about, but the stakes are lower in a civil case (i.e. no prison) and the burden of proof is easier, so you can more easily prove things or get the defense to admit things in a civil case that can sometimes make a criminal case easier.

Even if you can't cite the civil case from the criminal case, just the fact that the civil case ruled one way gives the prosecution confidence to commit to a criminal case and leverage if they negotiate a settlement.

[–] Viking_Hippie 5 points 1 year ago

Fair enough. I'm gonna be pessimistic in stead of completely dismissive about the possibility of him seeing significant consequences, then 😁

[–] [email protected] 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Could be due to the lower threshold for evidence (preponderance vs. beyond a reasonable doubt). Though I would imagine there's tons of evidence of this since it's been going on for 4 decades.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Answer to the question you asked: what he's technically accused of here is defrauding someone and the law will err on the side of "making the aggrieved party whole" (forcing him to give back what he stole) in these cases. After all, if someone ran off with all your money today would you be happier if the government hurt that person or if they made that person give it back to you. Someone steals my money no jail sentence is gonna satisfy me as much as being able to pay my mortgage.

Answer to the question you meant to ask: Takes less evidence to get a civil suit to court, and in the process of prosecuting the civil suit you can get subpoenas for evidence and testimony that can lead to criminal indictments. This is basically getting a foot in the door to look at his taxes, his accounting records and everything else. Wouldn't be shocked at all if there are criminal indictments on the way.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

Just FYI, but Trump has been involved with 4,095 lawsuits during his career.

This is a major on though.

https://www.azcentral.com/pages/interactives/trump-lawsuits/