this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2023
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WYSK: There funded by dark money PACS, but some good reporting has brought out these names: David Koch, Peter Thiel, Reid Hoffman, Mark Cuban, Harlan Crow, and Michael Bloomberg. Some of there members are most famous for stopping big bills. Joe Leiberman, for example, single handedly stopped the single payer portion of the ACA. Senators Joe Manchin and Kyrsen Simena kept the John Lewis voting rights act from passing, and famously kept the senate from repealing the filibuster.

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[–] [email protected] 78 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (4 children)

Edit: please note that I made at least one mistake here (as well as some kind of boneheaded comments later). FPTP, even in the US, does not require a 50% majority, just more votes than anyone else (a "plurality"). It can still benefit parties to get to 50%, since it makes their winning more likely, and so in the absence of any drawbacks, most successful parties will still aim for it, but it isn't strictly necessary, as has been sometimes demonstrated in the UK. Thanks to squaresinger for linking a YouTube video that mentions this below. /Edit

I just want to share my thoughts on this. It started as a response to one comment, but I realized that there's a lot more that can (and I think should) be said, so here goes.

First, for those who don't know, FPTP stands for First Past The Post, meaning a system where everyone votes for a single candidate and whoever gets more than 50% (i.e. "past the post") wins the entire election (the losers get nothing). For many Americans, this might be so familiar that one would wonder how it could be any different (in a small-d democratic system), but there are in fact many alternatives: ranked voting, proportional representation, Condorcet method, etc.

They all have strengths and weaknesses, but for FPTP, and other similar systems, there's a result in political science called Duverger's law that says FPTP-like rules tend to cause a two-party system, essentially because because even if you don't team up with a larger party you may disagree with on many issues, to get a majority, others will, and then they'll win and you'll get nothing. And since getting significantly more than 50% consumes party resources that might better be used elsewhere, but gives no reward, 50% (plus a small "safety margin") is what all the successful parties will eventually aim for, and thus you get two roughly equally-successful parties. Tiny swings in voting then lead to massive differences in outcomes, which threatens the stability and security of everyone (even America's "enemies").

So saying "just vote for third parties" (like I see some calling for here) is tone-deaf at best, or part of a cynical ploy to fracture the opponent's party at worst. Even if a "third party" does win, the best that can be hoped for under FPTP is they just end up replacing one of the two parties, becoming one of the two parties in the "new" two-party system. And the two existing parties have likely spent far more time and effort researching ways to stop even that from happening than any of us ever will.

If we, as Americans, or others with a stake in what America decides to do, want to change this (and I personally do), then we need far more fundamental changes to how the system works. Just choosing a candidate we like (whether they have any chance of winning or not) won't cut it. I don't know what's the best voting system to use, but I know I'd like to scrap the Electoral College, for a couple reasons:

  1. Even though one might argue that Congress and the Supreme Court are more essential to reform, it's hard to deny that the President has a very large leadership role today.

  2. One might argue that relying on a convoluted/Byzantine method for choosing the President makes it harder to manipulate, and that's probably true, but the two parties have shown that it being difficult is not a deterrent to them doing so: in fact, they likely both benefit from it by keeping smaller parties that can't afford to do it out.

It reminds me of the fallacy in computer security of "security through obscurity": if it's possible to break into the system, and large numbers of people can benefit substantially from it, then someone eventually will, no matter how hard we make it to exploit. We need to change the system, not only so that it is prohibitively difficult for anyone to exploit the system, but also to get rid of a lot of the corruption that makes most people want to exploit it in the first place.

All of this is much easier said than done, I know, but we need to explain clearly to the public why "quick fixes" won't work, before we can convince them of the need for more fundamental changes. We still need to work on figuring out the details of the best changes, but unless we can show people the reality of the deep structural problems that acually exist, why they exist, and how we know we're right about what we're saying, we'll never convince most people to change anything.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago (6 children)

You are totally right. The problem isn't zqthat such a change from within the system can only happen from a position of immense power. So to actually fix these bugs you need to

  • Have enough power to change the constitution
  • Have gotten that power through the current system
  • Be so dedicated to change the system that you are willing to risk all that power for the change, because any meaningful change means that the systems that brought you to power won't work in that way anymore.

Now, to make matters more difficult, representative democraties usually spread that power over hundreds or thousands of people. So not only you need to fit the bill above, but also the top few hundred politicians in your country need to agree to potentially losing their power.

So what tends to happen is the opposite: Politicians amass power and make it harder and harder to replace them, until a war/civil war/revolution happens and the next crowd tries to make it better.

The US has had centuries to concentrate power, contrary to many European nations that were re-founded after wars in the last century.

So unless the US as we know it collapses, there won't be significant change to the better for the political system.

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[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago

One of the biggest problems with making this change is that in areas where one party is dominant, voters of that party are afraid of changing the system because they fear it'll mean that they won't dominate anymore.

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[–] [email protected] 55 points 2 years ago (41 children)

If someone refuses to admit their political affiliation in the US you can basically guarantee they're right wing.

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[–] Candelestine 54 points 2 years ago (5 children)

No Labels as a name isn't even going to appeal to left-leaning folks, it sounds nonsensical and oversimplified. Things need labels, a Nazi is a Nazi. Useful label, even if the Jewish-hating, strong ethno-state sorts don't like it.

It'll appeal to moderates, but that'll pull from both sides.

Unless they run an environmentalist or something? Like a Green Party type spoiler? Would have to be an idiot not to run under their own banner though, raising awareness is their whole thing.

[–] [email protected] 23 points 2 years ago

Yeah, I gives me similar vibes as "I don't see color."

But even if we remove bigotry and politics and all of that... labels aren't necesarily bad. Like I am a creature who identifies as one of two main types of sexes that is sexually and emotionally attracted to creatures who identify as the same.

Which is a weird way of saying I'm a man who is sexually and romantically attracted to men, but those are labels, so I couldn't say man, human, etc.

Of course I could also just say I'm gay. While yes, everyone is a little different, it has worked so far for me. People tend to get it.

Labels are not bad. It's an idea only used by edgy teenagers and liberals who want to be good for the praise more so than for simply being good.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 2 years ago

Yeah, I certainly didn't think "progressive" when I read the name. It sounds like they're afraid to say what they are, which is a common far-right strategy.

I've been saying it since 2000 and I'll keep on saying it: the time to push for third parties is every year except election year. We need election reform first. The current system simply does not allow for a meaningful election between more than two parties. It cannot represent the will of the people. It needs to change.

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[–] DigitalTraveler42 46 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Also their candidate RFK, is a lying moron who's been called out many times over the years by his supposed "sources".

[–] thallamabond 19 points 2 years ago (1 children)

RFK is completely unfit for office, but I don't think he's involved.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I don't know my friend who almost died from COVID and blamed me for viral shedding from the vax seems to like him. Then again he voted maga so not quite the group they are trying to spoil.

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[–] assassin_aragorn 44 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I remember reading an article that did a deep dive into them once, and I was absolutely astounded by just how much they embodied the "enlightened centrist". I didn't think there were an appreciable number of people who were actually like that.

They continue the trend really of there being no good third party in the US - largely because FPTP makes two large parties preferable.

[–] samus12345 32 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (3 children)

When you really look at their ideology, "enlightened centrists" are right-wingers who think they're smarter than the usual bigots that group has. This can be seen by the fact that they pretty much always will complain about hate speech being called out, but will not call out the hate speech itself.

[–] Freckled_Daywalker 19 points 2 years ago

No labels is just a bunch of rich white dudes that want tax laws and legislation that makes them richer. They could not care less about social policy.

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[–] [email protected] 36 points 2 years ago (29 children)

Biden is doing a good job given the circumstances. If you don't want the total destruction of the United States, there is really only one choice for president... Joe Biden. All other roads lead to the Dark Lord Trumples, the Silly Piggy.

[–] voxov7 11 points 2 years ago (32 children)
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[–] thallamabond 18 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Forgot to mention, they have no Platform.

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[–] randon31415 15 points 2 years ago

I feel like Trump will be running as a spoiler candidate in 2024 at this rate.

[–] MiddleWeigh 10 points 2 years ago

I just want to live my life without being harassed tbh. I vote D, but they are largely all corporate shills at the presidential level. I don't know what else to say. The money involved in politics sort of makes the whole thing a farce imo.

[–] Dick_Justice 10 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Aw man, I kinda liked Mark Cuban.

[–] sebinspace 13 points 2 years ago (2 children)

No good multimillionaires.

[–] [email protected] 16 points 2 years ago (1 children)

*billionaires.

There are millionaires just from buying a house for $150k in the right city in the 90s. Doesn’t make them evil.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 years ago

The term millionaire ought to be updated to mean someone with the capacity to spend a million dollars at any given time, not people whose assets total 1 million

I would wager the former definition includes more bad people than the latter

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[–] FlashMobOfOne 6 points 2 years ago (2 children)

I mean, if you're a wage earner in this country, all the candidates are spoilers.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 years ago

Thats not what spoiler means

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