The tanks designed to fight Russia are about to fight Russia.
this post was submitted on 25 Sep 2023
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And about time too!
F15s still hunger ...
Apaches cry themselves to sleep every night thinking about that convoy that ran out of fuel on the way to Kyiv.
The a-10 is reenacting the blade runner scene "like tears in the rain".
Worst case of blue balls I've ever seen.
How important are tanks in modern warfare?
I've been under the impression that infantry, drones (both recon and attack), mortars, artillery and guided missiles are kind of the thing to focus on in modern war. I think of tanks as big expensive targets.
I am by no means an expert, but what I have gathered is that it, like almost everything in combat, is incredibly complex.
With the correct support and combined arms usage tanks are an absolute devastating force on the battlefield still. Used correctly they can completely change a battle.
But they aren't war winners by themselves, and have never been. Unsupported a single tank is exactly a big expensive target, just like a modern fighter and or a single soldier.
The idea that tanks can be wonder weapons and that they alone can turn the tide of a war has existed since WW2, but they have always had weaknesses that need to be covered by supporting elements in order to be used effectively.
How the Abrams will do in Ukraine is anyone's guess. The Abrams has never seen combat without the might of the US's military logistics backing it up.
All that being said, if you are in a firefight, would you rather have a tank backing you up, or not? I'd take the tank support.
How the Abrams will do in Ukraine is anyone’s guess. The Abrams has never seen combat without the might of the US’s military logistics backing it up.
Well Ukraine already fields Leos, the Abram's twin separated before birth (both tanks started out as a joint programme, then Germany realised that the US were serious about using a turbine).
They use the exact same main gun, armour will be roughly comparable, there will be differences in secondary armament (machine guns, numbers and calibres thereof, (smoke) grenade launchers, etc), but generally also comparable (and generally modular). Both are about the same size and weigh about the same.
The big difference is that the Leo is faster, while the Abrams guzzles more fuel. Also, not diesel, but (preferably) jet fuel. And, as you said, Abrams logistics are a nightmare, even for the US. The one definite upside of the Abrams though is that the US have thousands standing around collecting dust because they kept producing them because that's cheaper than shutting down factories and starting them up again ten, twenty years later.
All in all: In combat it'll perform pretty much like the Leo as long as the Ukrainians can keep up with the logistics requirements. They don't have to do the whole logistics chain, though, in particular when it comes to maintenance... they'll need to do field maintenance and maybe they'll get away with half of what a depot would usually do and definitely let the Poles deal with the rest, just as with the Leo.
And given the sheer number of tanks the US could deliver having more lag in the maintenance department isn't actually that bad, having 10 tanks on a train to ship to Poland and back all the time would be a drop in the bucket.
..., while the Abrams guzzles more fuel. Also, not diesel, but (preferably) jet fuel.
This again... Yes, the Abrams needs more fuel, than for example the Leopard 2. But it's actually not that much more. I'll dig up the numbers later, when I'm home. Also the claim about jetfuel: The Abrams uses (mainly) JP8. And so do most if not all vehicles of the US military. This was done to unburden logistics - You only need to ship JP8 if everything in your arsenal uses it. And JP8 is basically Dieselfuel with worse lubrication properties than regular Diesel.
I retract everything and assert the opposite.
But, hey, at least you don't have to explain to people that a squad bringing a broomstick to an exercise to argue to brass that their command vehicle should have a gun even though it doesn't have a dedicated gunner does not even begin to be embarrassing.
Yeah, I’m a little anxious about how they’ll do. While they’re great technology, they’re just one piece.
They would be unstoppable if they also included air superiority, integrated battle mapping, sensors and satellites, the classified armor, overwhelming numbers, combined arms assault, the amazing global logistics of the us military ……
the amazing global logistics of the us military
This might not be terribly relevant but Ukraine has in fact stellar strategic airlift capabilities, at least by European standards. Definitely better than Germany we don't have An-124 to fly over to Australia on a whim and fetch a couple of Bushmasters. They have seven of them, when other European militaries need that kind of transport we lease exactly those.
And while A400Ms are in operation now and they are fine birds indeed, strategic transports they are not.
While I'm at it: RIP Mriya.
mriya :(
They're the bunker buster for infantry advancement. You can't keep them in front all the time, they'd get taken out. But being able to blast and smash fortified positions during an infantry engagement can decide a battle. They can also give short chase to escaping mobile units.
On a defensive front, they're a bunker that can move whenever your own hard points get bombed out. Providing cover to maintain a position.
From the videos and information I know about, the Ukrainian military is using them more like fast and heavily armory artillery in a lot of cases. They have a much better standoff distance than infantry but a much shorter range than actual artillery, they can redeploy with a quickness, and compared to Russia, they are really good at reclaiming hulls to refurbish and rebuild.
I recently learned that most of the damage that kills people is in the turret. So when a tank takes a bunch of damage they can tow out the hull, swap in a new turret, patch up any damage on the hull, replace a few armor panels, and replace it. It's not easy, but it's easier to repair and refurbish than building a whole new tank.
It turns out the Russians are not so good at retrieving tank hulls, and really enjoy just scuttling them and running away (assuming they survive and whole thing isn't just trashed). Which is a whole tank hull that can never be used again.
Drones, yes. Infantry? Less so.
Dudes have to be well prepared, equipped, have solid Intel and the tanker has to either be stupid or have bad leadership.
The tanks should keep their distance and support infantry while keeping a look out on thermal for anything that gets too close. They have emergency features like trophy (it's a explosion that shoots down missiles) but mostly they wait for infantry to find targets for them to blow up.
In tank-tank combat they often let their infantry fall back while they lock on at range and hope their gunnery is better.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The first U.S. Abrams tanks pledged to Ukraine have arrived in the country and are being prepared to send into battle, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky announced Monday.
“By having these tanks in their arsenal, the Ukrainian army can more effectively discourage aggressive actions,” the Defense Department spokesperson told The Hill.
President Biden in January agreed to send 31 Abrams tanks to Kyiv to help Ukrainian troops push back against a Russian invasion.
The decision was a major turnaround — the Biden administration initially argued the tanks would not greatly help Ukraine because they were difficult to maintain and operate and would take months to procure.
The military is also set to train Ukrainian pilots to fly F-16 fighter jets, which the Netherlands and Denmark plan to send to Ukraine.
Washington has provided billions of dollars in aid to Kyiv amid the war, with the administration last week sending Congress a supplemental funding request that includes another $24 billion in military, humanitarian and financial assistance for Ukraine.
The original article contains 284 words, the summary contains 166 words. Saved 42%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
"SNIFF!!"
Ah, I love the smell of fresh tanks in the morning! Its metallic!
Why in the fuck is Zelensky using a platform ran by a guy that sabotaged his military's communications, leading to the deaths of countless innocent lives, and further prolonging the conflict?
Because it has the widest reach available.
I mean, there's the news?
I mean, you're reading it through the news.
Yes, but how was it propagated?
I agree with the "widest reach" comment but from https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/25/world/europe/us-abrams-tanks-ukraine.html
"Mr. Zelensky offered no details in a post on his Telegram channel, but U.S. officials said two platoons worth of tanks were delivered to Ukraine."
So NYTimes is quoting U.S. officials and presumably Zelensky's Telegram.
I expect there are multiple communication channels in use. As long as Twitter allows him to post, it is reasonable to use it. Certain he could/should use more, but in war things get dirty and sometimes you have to do terrible things like "use Twitter".
It's not about "using twitter" being a terrible thing, it's about using a platform controlled by the same exact guy that cut off your communications via starlink that lead to them being unable to stop Russia's navy from sending missiles toward Ukraine.
If you don't see the irony in that, I don't know what else to say.
Oh the irony of it all is clear. Even if Putin owned Twitter and the Abrams tanks were Tesla, it would still make sense to use the website and tanks*.
*(Although you have to assume Zelensky isn't posting directly to Twitter given location metadata; and if an unsavory person gave you a tank you'd need to REALLY REALLY check it for explosives, spyware, etc.)
These tanks represent the very cutting edge of Ukraine’s trident.
Do tridents have a “cutting edge”? It’s more of a “stabby end”.
Somewhere, on a smaller scale, aren't all stabby ends.. cutting edges, eventually?
This, or you have a point.
About 3 of them
It's always very inspiring to see what we spent our money on instead of health care.
Just inspiring.
We already had the tanks to use. They aren't getting used otherewise. While our military budget is ridiculous, if there were ever a great reason to spend it, supporting an ally to help knock down a world power such as Russia for significantly cheaper than we ever could on our own would be it. We don't even have any American troops dying in this war.
We need healthcare, yes. But what we gain by helping Ukraine is not insignificant. Also it is the right thing to do, so more points there.
I'm also going to point out that we (US) spend more per person on healthcare than most other countries. There doesn't need to be a cut to the military to give everyone healthcare, since universal healthcare would probably cost less money
Oh I know, but why make a point on my terms when you can make a point with theirs? You can't deflect as easily when you are hit head on.
We are finally going back to putting into practice FDR's vision of being the Arsenal of Democracy.
As long as nobody tries to attack us again, we might just even stay out of the war permanently. I like the idea of helping prevent the takeover of a country by a bunch of other countries with a finger wiggle while saying "ah ah ah, not today!"
Yep. As crappy as a policy it was, Manifest Destiny really helped keep the US secure. I personally think we can afford Healthcare and Arms production, but being a country that helps other countries fight to preserve their autonomy feels pretty good.
Better than spending 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan to just end up with everything back to how it was before.
The US pays more per patient for healthcare than countries with social healthcare.
Socialised healthcare would actually save money and allow the US to buy more tanks.
Do you prefer Lockheed Socialism or Social Lockheedism?
I just call them Death Panels
Lmfaooooo
This is an ignorant take.
I don't know why you'd say that.
I always feel better about the fact that our people can't afford to have an injury or illness treated without going into debt, provided I get to see a line of really cool tanks heading off to fight another country's war.
I said it because we can have both. Not that, you know, maybe we shouldn't have such a large military budget... But universal healthcare would actually cost less than our current privatized healthcare. It's efficient. So it is not the cost that's stopping it from happening.
I said it because we can have both
Canada has universal health care. Their military budget is 26 billion a year.
Better things are possible, at least they would be if we weren't such warmongers.