this post was submitted on 12 Aug 2023
32 points (92.1% liked)

Ask Lemmy

27035 readers
948 users here now

A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions

Please don't post about US Politics. If you need to do this, try [email protected]


Rules: (interactive)


1) Be nice and; have funDoxxing, trolling, sealioning, racism, and toxicity are not welcomed in AskLemmy. Remember what your mother said: if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. In addition, the site-wide Lemmy.world terms of service also apply here. Please familiarize yourself with them


2) All posts must end with a '?'This is sort of like Jeopardy. Please phrase all post titles in the form of a proper question ending with ?


3) No spamPlease do not flood the community with nonsense. Actual suspected spammers will be banned on site. No astroturfing.


4) NSFW is okay, within reasonJust remember to tag posts with either a content warning or a [NSFW] tag. Overtly sexual posts are not allowed, please direct them to either [email protected] or [email protected]. NSFW comments should be restricted to posts tagged [NSFW].


5) This is not a support community.
It is not a place for 'how do I?', type questions. If you have any questions regarding the site itself or would like to report a community, please direct them to Lemmy.world Support or email [email protected]. For other questions check our partnered communities list, or use the search function.


Reminder: The terms of service apply here too.

Partnered Communities:

Tech Support

No Stupid Questions

You Should Know

Reddit

Jokes

Ask Ouija


Logo design credit goes to: tubbadu


founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

I think that the additional weight on the water on the surface of the outer airplane body increases friction with the air, and also weight of the aircraft. But does the fuel consumption increase? And by how much?

all 21 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 55 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Former C-130 Flight engineer here, it was my job to calculate performance data for takeoff and landing.

Rain only matters because it increases stopping distance. It doesn't affect engine performance, and it never even occurred to me that a wet airplane would be heavier than a dry one. To get a sense of weights we care about, our empty weight is ~90k pounds and our max (peacetime) takeoff weight is 155k pounds. Performance numbers are good for 5000 pounds, so even if the water weighs several hundred pounds we'd never notice.

The most important factor in engine performance is the density of the air, which is driven by temperature and altitude. You get more power on cold days and at low altitude, less on hot days and high altitudes. (Which is why Denver has long runways)

There is a decision tree when planning a takeoff, and extended stopping distances due to a wet runway sometimes pushes you to use a higher power setting which is a bit less efficient. So the answer to your question is maybe a little, sometimes, but not in the way you think.

[–] wolfpack86 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Rainy days will lower barometric pressure, so perhaps there's a performance drop, but not by virtue of the water on the plane?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

We do account for barometric pressure, but it's generally a few tens of feet. So yeah, a teeny tiny bit, though you can have low barometric pressure without rain.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Plus any raindrops being sent through the engine will weigh more than normal air

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Sorry I wasn't clear, it's the density of oxygen in the air. Rain will reduce that number, but by an immeasurably small amount.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Total guess but I imagine the increase in relative humidity impacts the combustion efficiency of the engine as well

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Fun fact. In the days before high-bypass turbofan engines, water was deliberately injected into jet engines to cool down the combustion chamber and increase thrust: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engine)#Use_in_aircraft

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

So they were part steam engine. Cool.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Never thought of it that way, but yeah, you could say that.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Damn what a rabbit hole and TIL

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

Water injection is still used in some industrial gas turbines as a control for emissions, along with a modest increase in power. Steam injection is also used in some situations.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Came here to write the same :)

I guess this effect is much stronger than a few raindrops on the surface.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

If you consider the fuselage a cylinder and calculate the surface area of the lateral surface it’s 2pir*h. this site has the length as 209.08ft and the diameter as 20.3. That means the fuselage surface area is about 13300ft^2. That same site lists the wing surface area as 4605ft^2, for a total of 17905 square. Assuming an 1/8” of water accumulates uniformly, which is a bad assumption, that’s 2238 cubic feet of water. Each cubic foot weighs about 62 pounds, so that much water weighs 136000 pounds. The normal takeoff weight of a 777 is 534000 pounds, yeah that is a lot. However, only about half the surface area is exposed to rain and 1/8 inch is a lot. Id imagine it’s less than half that weight.

[–] freecandy 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Thats like 2.5 times the weight of fuel when full. Math is bad

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It’s the upper bound of a plane fully covered with an eighth inch of water. Reading is hard.

[–] freecandy 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Youre probably the same kind of student I was. Shows that you know how to do the work, but don't care enough to actually find the right answer

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

Hell yes lol nailed it. I feel seen

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

I'm even worse at math than either of you, what's bad here?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I appreciate this answer. The other posts showing the math are still cool, but in theory I could do it myself.

You highlighted shit that wouldn't occur to me.

[–] GregorGizeh 1 points 1 year ago

I don’t know much about it myself, but I would guess it is negligible. Maybe for small propeller machines with a fairly limited amount of fuel capacity; but larger planes, especially commercial ones, have reserve fuel for quite some time.

Situations where landing at the destination is temporarily unavailable, air traffic requires the plane to circle for some time, or they are even rerouted to a different airport can always occur and are accounted for. A minor increase from rainfall shouldn’t make a dent. I would think.