this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2024
42 points (93.8% liked)

politics

19221 readers
2403 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

• Register To Vote

• Citizenship Resource Center

• Congressional Awards Program

• Federal Government Agencies

• Library of Congress Legislative Resources

• The White House

• U.S. House of Representatives

• U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

• News

• World News

• Business News

• Political Discussion

• Ask Politics

• Military News

• Global Politics

• Moderate Politics

• Progressive Politics

• UK Politics

• Canadian Politics

• Australian Politics

• New Zealand Politics

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
outrageousmatter
aidan
jordanlund
HLMenckenFan
little_cow
42
Trans activist from Donald Trump’s notorious anti-trans ad insists it’s not why Kamala Harris lost (www.lgbtqnation.com)
submitted 6 days ago by jeffw to c/politics
23 comments fedilink hide all child comments
top 23 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] FuglyDuck 22 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

They’re right.

Democrats lost votes on Immigration , the Israeli genocide in Gaza and economic perception.

There may have been some lgbtq voters that were reluctant… but they weren’t even close to the largest losses of voters.

Ultimately, they fucked up messaging on the economy and tried to persuade unpersuadable “centrists” by taking up Trump’s own immigration policy. And then there’s the blatant and nearly unconditional support of Israel.

Dems need to realize that centrists are already going to vote one way or the other. You can’t sacrifice your base for a small fraction of people who claim to be “undecided”.

And you certainly won’t convince some idiot willing to vote for trump.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Exactly what is the Democrats base these days? I am genuinely curious. Because it seems they don’t have one and don’t listen to what any normal person wants.

Health care? Improving or even maintaining infrastructure? Education? Affordable housing?

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The Democratic National Party believes they are entitled to all progressive votes in the U.S. by sole virtue of being the lesser evil, so they don't feel like they need to appeal to their progressive voter base.

I personally think the "undecided, conservative centrists" that the DNC keeps trying to court every election are a myth, but presumably that's the base they think they need to win.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 days ago

It apparently worked for the last 30+ years. And it led to the current Orange Cheeto that will hasten the demise of the US empire.

[–] Ensign_Crab 8 points 6 days ago

Dems need to realize that centrists are already going to vote one way or the other. You can’t sacrifice your base for a small fraction of people who claim to be “undecided”.

This supposes that their stated reason for moving to the right was their actual reason for moving to the right.

They moved to the right because they wanted to and thought they could get away with it. The sprint rightward on immigration, the support for genocide, the parroting of republican anti-trans hate in their own ads, the Cheney endorsements and so on were Democratic politicians telling us exactly what they are.

[–] inclementimmigrant 0 points 2 days ago

If Democrats actually think their loss was for to fighting for human rights then they are dumber than I could even imagine.

[–] Omegamanthethird 8 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Apparently the thing that resonated with voters from the trans ads was the economic piece, which is why they include that guy talking about "why is my money going towards this?" The rest is just a smoke screen for the left to get upset about.

Also, Dems are too scared to really talk about the subject. AOC was on the right track after the congressional bathroom fiasco. The right wants all the pedos doing gender searches on your kids and they want to force trans men into women's bathrooms.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

The economic factor is easily the biggest blindspot in the Dem's campaign. We're still seeing articles right now about how Biden "fixed" the economy only to hand it over to Trump to destroy again..

They're absolutely stuck on this idea that Biden was great for the economy because metrics like GDP and the S&P 500 went up, all the whole ignoring the simple fact that those numbers only represent meaningful gains for the wealthy. With mounting inflation and stagnant wages, most people are poorer than ever.

They lost because they promised "four more years of this", and "this" was "you getting poorer every day." It's really that simple.

[–] Nightwingdragon 1 points 5 days ago (2 children)

They lost because they promised “four more years of this”, and “this” was “you getting poorer every day.” It’s really that simple.

So voting for a guy who wants to deport a good chunk of our labor supply, enacting tariffs that will cause prices to skyrocket, gutting social safety net programs, and endorsing someone who actively wants to "impose more hardship" on people is the better idea?

I understand not wanting to have to settle for the "lesser evil" or "least bad" option, so to speak. But there's a point where you have to suck it up and do that. Allowing the greater evil to rise to power just to "send a message" or whatever is not only shooting yourself in the foot, it's reloading the shotgun when you realize you missed some toes. You need to know when to pick your battles, and the 2024 election was not the time. All people with this mindset did is just make things worse for everybody.

People ridicule the GOP for constantly voting against their best interests. But if this is the mindset you have, you're guilty of the exact same thing.

[–] Ensign_Crab 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I understand not wanting to have to settle for the “lesser evil” or “least bad” option, so to speak. But there’s a point where you have to suck it up and do that.

This was not a compelling message, and people stayed home.

[–] Nightwingdragon 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

However you want to word it, the end result was the same, and was just as stupid. People didn't like the message Dems were sending, so they opted to allow someone exponentially worse to rise to power, and are now complaining about things getting exponentially worse.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice. They made that choice knowing full well the consequences of it, made it anyway, and are now complaining about the consequences.

[–] Ensign_Crab 0 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

You're right. You're entitled to the unquestioning loyalty of everyone to your left that you hate, no matter what you do. Keep moving to the right. It's all you will ever do because genocide wasn't far enough to the right for you.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

It never mattered what Trump was promising. Not in specific sense. It only mattered that he promised things would get better. The how was irrelevant.

When you're drowning, and someone says "I'll help you!" you don't ask them to lay out their exact plan. You just throw out your hand and hope they'll take it.

These people made a very simple calculation; "I know I'll continue to drown with the Dems. I know this because that's exactly what they've promised; four more years of slowly drowning. With Trump, there's a chance that maybe he'll make things better. A chance is better than no chance."

Based on that calculation, they did exactly what you're asking them to do. They voted for the least bad option.

[–] Nightwingdragon 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

This would be a valid argument for Trump 2016, when people had little to no clue what we were all in for.

But in 2024, Trump wasn't saying "I'll help you". Trump was actively campaigning on grabbing you by the legs and pulling you deeper underwater.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 days ago

This would be a valid argument for Trump 2016, when people had little to no clue what we were all in for.

People believe, first and foremost, the evidence of their own lived experiences. This isn't rational but it is how we're programmed to operate. And the lived experience of most voters is that, financially, they're doing worse under Biden than they were under Trump. They don't care that most of that was because of factors that weren't really directly connected to White House policy decisions (in the same way that the President doesn't control the price of gas); they just see that they are suffering, and feel that the people in charge must be responsible. It doesn't matter how terrible you tell them Trump's policies were compared to Bidens (and in case I somehow have to spell out my position here, yes, of course Trump's policies were terrible compared to Biden's) because they know how much money is in their bank account and that's really all that matters. Telling these people how much better off the country is doesn't mean shit if they're struggling to pay rent and buy groceries.

But in 2024, Trump wasn't saying "I'll help you". Trump was actively campaigning on grabbing you by the legs and pulling you deeper underwater.

Let's not be asinine. Of course Trump was saying "I'll help you." Yes, you and I have the context to examine his proposed solutions and immediately conclude that they will make things worse, but that's not a context that everyone shares. Like I already said, these people are drowning. Most people don't have enough understanding of policy to really judge the details of Trump's plans, and they don't have the time or attention to gain that understanding of policy. They're not interested in arguing over the details of how someone plans to save them, they just want to be saved. And they don't even have to be 100% convinced that Trump will be the better choice. Not even 50%, or 30%. What they are 100% convinced of, because it is the unquestionable evidence sitting right in front of them, is that they're poorer now than they were at the start of Biden's term, and that Harris, when asked what she would have done different, said "Not a thing." If there's even a 10% chance, in their eyes, that Trump's bullshit turns out to work, he's the better option, because it's obvious to them that there's a 0% chance that things will get better with the Dems. You can tell them all you like that Trump's policies are awful, but when the thing you propose instead is voting for the people who - as they see it - made things so much worse for them over the last four years, they're going to look at you like you're crazy.

[–] Nightwingdragon -2 points 5 days ago (3 children)

All of the excuses I'm seeing in the comments are a load of bullshit that don't pass even the most basic scrutiny.

Democrats didn't just look at Harris' immigration policies, then decide "Not good enough, so I think I'll vote for the person who wants to deport brown people en masse."

Democrats didn't look at Harris and Biden supporting Israel, then decide "I don't support the genocide in Gaza, so I'm going to vote for the guy promising to genocide harder! That'll show 'em!"

Democrats didn't look at the state of the economy and decide to vote for the guy who's economic policy was literally "They're eating the dogs! They're eating the cats! They're ..... eating the pets!", brought on a guy who outright said he was going to inflict even more economic hardship on people intentionally, and threaten even more tariffs while clearly having no idea how tariffs actually work.

Democrats spent months saying the old white guy (Biden) needed to go, without regard for the fact that his opponent was another old white guy. Then, when the old white guy stepped aside, Democrats were like "No, not like that!". And now they're saying that they'd have gladly voted for an even older white guy (Sanders). Which means that Democrats might have a problem with age, but they'll gladly vote for an old white guy over a black woman and would rather allow an old white guy to become a dictator before they'd consider voting for one.

But Democrats (at least the ones on here) did decide that Liz Cheney endorsing Harris was the final straw. They had no problems when numerous prominent members of the GOP were endorsing Trump and saying how dangerous the man is, but Liz Cheney -- the woman who literally sacrificed her career to stand up to Trump -- was the bridge too far. What was the difference between Liz Cheney and the other GOP members that supported Harris? Cheney was the only prominent woman.

And that is where the real issue is. This country is not ready or willing to vote for a woman, particularly a black woman, as President. There are plenty of people who look back at Obama's presidency and have said "Never again", not because he was a bad president, but because he was black. Plenty of people who have since openly come out and proudly wear their misogyny like a badge of honor. Latinos, particularly men largely known for their beliefs that they are dominant over women and their refusal to cooperate with authorities, were never going to vote for a black woman prosecutor. And plenty of closet racists who couldn't bring themselves to vote for a black woman so either opted to vote Trump or stay home, and are now just looking for another excuse to justify it.

If Trump had given something even resembling a coherent economic policy, foreign policies meant to actually end the Mideast conflict instead of exacerbating it, or an immigration policy that went beyond "Just deport all the brown people", then maybe i'd accept that some people voted Trump based on policy, even if I don't agree with it. But Trump was actively campaigning on making everything exponentially worse, which is why I firmly believe the rest are just excuses for people who don't want to admit they just didn't want to vote for a black woman.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 days ago (1 children)

This is such a bad take with literally no evidence to support it. Ignore all the people telling you exactly why they didnt vote for Harris, and simply proclaim confidently that it must be racism and sexism. Now I am in no way denying that those things exist in the US, but theres literally no reason to believe thats why she lost. Biden was polling terribly, and people wanted him out, because of his age and policies, despite his maleness and whiteness. People want bernie because of his policies, despite his oldness. Literally no one has ever said "i didnt vore for kamala because shes a black woman" but you think you can invent this justification for her losing despite all evidence to the contrary, so that the democratic party doesnt have to do an ounce of self reflection or adjust their policy positions at all.

[–] Nightwingdragon 0 points 5 days ago (1 children)

This is such a bad take with literally no evidence to support it. Ignore all the people telling you exactly why they didnt vote for Harris

No, I'm not ignoring them. I'm calling them out for the bullshit excuses they are.

Explain to me how any of it makes sense. Explain how you say you don't support the Gaza genocide, so therefore will allow the guy who promises to genocide harder and faster to return to power.

Explain to me how you disagree with Harris' position on immigration, then turn around and allow the guy who's entire policy is "just deport the brown people" to return to power.

Explain how you're upset about the state of the economy, so you'll allow a man who wants to gut social safety nets so he can give more tax cuts to the wealthy, impose tarrifs that will cause prices to skyrocket, and hired a man who proudly proclaims his intentions to impose even more hardship (his own words) on poor people.

Explain what makes Liz Cheney different from literally every other Republican politician -- including her own father -- that either openly endorsed Harris or at least spoke out against Trump. Hundreds of Republicans. Nobody said a god damned word until Liz Cheney -- the one Republican politician, remember, who sacrificed her own career to speak out against him while the rest of them ultimately fell in line and supported Trump, which many continue to do to this day now that he's about to return to the WH. Suddenly, she was the bridge too far. I wonder what separated her from all of the other guys in the GOP that also endorsed her. Guess we'll never know.....

Explain how the voting base was against an old white guy until he stepped aside and endorsed a black woman. And now they're saying that they'd have voted for an even older white guy. Funny how age suddenly stopped being an issue.

How many years have people been asking Republicans to grow a spine and stand up to Trump? And the instant that they decided to do so, you take a giant shit on them and sink Harris' career for associating with them? How the fuck does that make sense? If that's the way you're going to treat people who actually reached across the aisle, you can't be surprised when the rest of them suddenly have very short arms.

And before you say it, no, I'm not a Cheney fan and disagree with her on about 99.9999% of policy issues. But Cheney herself wasn't up for re-election, nor were her policies on any ballot anywhere. She was basically there in a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" kind of way, trying to tell people to vote for Harris because the alternative was exponentially worse.

Because for all the people who keep downvoting me, not a single one is willing to answer the question of how allowing Trump to return to power was better in any conceivable way. And if you stayed home, that doesn't absolve you of guilt because you stayed home knowing damn well that it was essentially the same thing.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 days ago

Youre a fucking idiot apparently because people have explained these things. Firstly i dont think trump is better, but some people refuse to stand by and watch the democrats constantly move right with no consequences. Literally for like 60 years theyve been saying 'this is the most important election of our lives, vote for the lesser of two evils'. Hunter s thompson wrote about it in fear and loathing on the campaign trail. Like how do you not see the pattern. Until theres an actual viable progressive choice, a lot of people are just fed up with the bullshit. If allowing trump to gain power causes some reform to the democratic party or allows a viable third party alternative to rise then it probably will be worth it. Also i am not american, and probably would have voted for harris but i would have complained about her SHITTY FUCKING POLICIES the whole time. All of you people who were defending her endlessly despite every bad move she made are responsible for trump. Noone was upset that republicans were standing up against trump. They were upset that the democrats tried to become republucans in order to beat him. Also explaining why the vast majority of people who arent on lemmy didnt like harris is not the same as saying you voted for trump or think he would be better. Keep fucking coping and licking kamalas boots though, dont use any critical thinking at all, just keep screaming RACIST at people who arent even listening.

[–] Wogi 1 points 5 days ago

Had me in the first half not gonna lie

[–] Ensign_Crab 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (1 children)

This is a very long rambling strawman. People didn't vote for Trump because Harris moved to the right. They stayed home because Harris moved to the right.

I know you don't want to admit that moving to the right has hit a wall, but it has.

I know you're only saying a woman of color can't win because you want the party to shut out AOC if she decides to run in 2028.

[–] Nightwingdragon 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

This is a very long rambling strawman. People didn’t vote for Trump because Harris moved to the right. They stayed home because Harris moved to the right.

And in the process, they allowed the entire country to be dragged kicking and screaming even further right. Good job guys, you played yourselves.

I know you don’t want to admit that moving to the right has hit a wall, but it has.

So the solution to that problem is to stay home and allow the country to be pulled even further right. How's that working out for you?

I know you’re only saying a woman of color can’t win because you want the party to shut out AOC if she decides to run in 2028.

I'm not even going to dignify this comment with a response.

[–] Ensign_Crab -1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

So the solution to that problem is to stay home and allow the country to be pulled even further right. How’s that working out for you?

I voted for Harris. It's working out pretty shitty for me, because not only do I get the results of a centrist campaign losing, I also get self-righteous lectures from people like you. Now ignore this entire comment and lecture some more. Make sure to continue to assume I didn't vote for Harris, since you have no argument otherwise.

I’m not even going to dignify this comment with a response.

Responses from you are incapable of bestowing dignity.