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Urgh. This is a tough one. Social media has been a part of asymmetric warfare for at least the past ten years, and I don’t want my kids to be bombarded with propaganda from Russian and Chinese-funded far-right groups like the AfD.
At the same time, I understand how important it is for kids to explore the internet on their own.
If I had the choice, I would ban TikTok and Instagram.
But if that’s not possible – then honestly, ban everything. I will then work something out with my kids myself.
It used to be valuable to explore the internet but the internet has largely been corrupted by corporate greed.
By and large the experience Young folks have on the Internet is almost entirely through applications meant to abuse and take advantage of their underdeveloped brains. Behavior driven by algorithmic pressure.
This is bad news bears for society.
There isn't a whole lot of exploring to be done for the grand majority of kids on the internet. Instead they will be classified bucketed and used for further financial gain by a select few corporations.
The True Problem, is that an actual-safe-space is required, for kids,
& that costs investment to produce, & to maintain.
We pay for kindergarten & schools to be safe-spaces, don't we?
Children's forming brains require healthy place, right?
Same is required for internet, for them.
So, a "walled garden" with wikipedia ( not the gore-centered stuff, & there seems to be some of that on there ), & TVTropes,
etc, is required for them to develop their minds healthy,
but the only "successful" walled-gardens were made with machiavellian intent, thus-far..
Apple's walled-garden, Microsoft's, AOL's, Google's, etc..
Nobody's done a not-for-profit edition for humanitarian reasons..
Big Tech'd sabotage it any way they could, in order to "prove" it "doesn't work"
( it'll never be seen in Google News, Facebook may well disappear all references to it, Apple wouldn't permit it on their platform's App Store, etc.. )
Exterminating-alternative is required when the stakes are world-possession, right?
NO competitor allowed, right??
Nobody's got the spine to create the required walled-garden which simultaneously gives children
access to meaningful friends
lots of learning opportunities & learning-means
gamefied learning, like projects-done-together on interesting-to-them subjects, with real accomplishings, like Science Fairs can be, irl
systematic stomping of abuse, predators, bullying, etc..
systematic training them in sane privacy-habits, device-health habits ( update your apps weekly! Reboot your device weekly! Use antivirus! )
systematically training all children in critical-thinking, dismantling ideology-programming as completely as possible, from the next-generation
etc.
& if anybody did have the spine, then it'd be force-disallowed by Big Tech.
Humankind waited too long to care, & now the bad-guys own the whole "game", it looks like, to me..
Human children never will know what honest, proper, supportive systematic-development through interesting challenges, & safe growing-up can be, because our-generations wouldn't do what was required, when we had leverage to be able to do it.
"fighting over crumbs" is all that's left, it looks like..
( lobbied "representatives" wouldn't allow world-integrity to violate their owners' interests, either, obviously.. )
Sorry for my bitterness, but I'm old.
_ /\ _
At the same time, I understand how important it is for kids to explore the internet on their own.
No more though. It's more important that they spend time at the fresh air & play. The internet has become pretty useless outside of wikipedia & social media, and social media has become pretty toxic outside of a few spots (like we can hopefully keep lemmy).
I would absolutely support a 100% social media ban for all centralized networks (corporation controlled). Because they are used not only to damage the brains of children, but those of adults as well (see Eastern German elections). Only federated chat systems / social media should be allowed. But that's where our fascist overlords have a conflict of interest - they desperately want to see everything we communicate - and chat control (literally, fuck you EU) is not possible in federated networks.
Oh, I have to disagree strongly. Precisely because the internet has gotten worse, it’s even more important for children to learn how to navigate it effectively.
Take my former colleague as an example: a 45-year-old downloading a “better zip tool” from a Russian website full of awful spelling and dubious claims.
Kids need to learn about ad blockers, VPNs, and how to identify fake news. Not teaching them these skills leaves them far more vulnerable to online threats than if they were taught how to handle these issues from an early age. And as many people tell you, the best way to truly learn about something is by doing it yourself.
The internet is only going to become more relevant in the future.
Side note.
Social media is now a theater of war, with adults and children alike being the weapons created by way of social media propaganda.
Children, who are the most likely to be affected and manipulated, who are also primary targets due to said vulnerabilities should be excluded from these platforms for this reason alone.
This is a problem that's growing at a scale to affect entire countries. Countries with populations vulnerable to social media targeting propaganda, astroturfing, and manipulation are vulnerable on the world stage.
Making this a growing national security concern for any country.
Oh, I have to disagree strongly. Precisely because the internet has gotten worse, it’s even more important for children to learn how to navigate it effectively.
Okay, you have a point there. But in a way, that doesn't refute my point - the opposite of "learning how to navigate it effectively" is letting children have access to it on their own. It would need to be taught in school, by qualified teachers (who don't exist in sufficient quantity).
The internet is only going to become more relevant in the future.
I am not so sure about this - because I have seen it evolve over the past decades, and as I previously pointed out, it's become mostly ads, propaganda and bullshit. The only reason people spend more time online is because of the addictive mechanisms in most modern smartphone apps. Me, not using those, I find myself spending less and less time on the internet.
Okay, you have a point there. But in a way, that doesn’t refute my point - the opposite of “learning how to navigate it effectively” is letting children have access to it on their own. It would need to be taught in school, by qualified teachers (who don’t exist in sufficient quantity).
Of course, children need basic training on how to use the internet, and I know it’s going to be tedious, but I will explain to them why I think it’s not good for them to use TikTok and Instagram—at least until they’re 14, 15, or 16.
As an Australian social media isn't the problem, like the internet isnt the problem, its commersialisation thats the problem. The need to grow the custoner base sees outrageous behaviours from corporations like Meta, Google, Apple etal but that's what they're incentivised to do, so that's what happens.
This legilisation won't solve shit. The government and the polotical class forcing citizens to use Facebook or Twitter to get information, they could start there.
Absolutely social media is the problem.
The echo chambers, the propagation of facist ideology, the state sponsored misinformation campaigns, the anti-intellectualism, all made possible by social media. No where else could these banes on modern democracy and society have been so easily bred but on social media.
The networks that do the most damage were specifically engineered that way due to the profit motive rewarding engagement of all sorts above positive connection. Social media is the problem, but it's only that way because of the economic and commercial factors involved. Individuals can always be assholes, but nobody has miserable memories of myspace and MSN online as genocide-facilitating false news propagators, because they weren't specifically designed to make people angry and breathlessly message everyone they know about a perceived problem.
Social media has the capacity to connect disparate groups of people, become a forum for interests, and open the world up to new perspectives and information - the intentional monopolisation of that promise by frankly, evil, multinationals is the root cause of the issue - not the technology itself.
Australia's new law will do fucking nothing, and as many experts have suggested, will probably make the issues worse. Bullying isn't limited to social media, so a child that previously found refuge by connecting with like-minded friends elsewhere or staying in touch when living remote, now gets to be 'saved' by being kicked off the platform and left with only the real-life bullying they endure at school. Counterproductive.
Additionally, if the platforms are such violent cesspools for children, why is it then acceptable for them to continue with their perverse rage-bait designs, so long as the user is over 16? The government should instead be regulating the mechanics and algorithms of the sites to make them safer, more reasonable and positive entities - rather than just giving up on any meaningful regulation and saying that meta is fine, because a 17 year old can get bullied in person instead of a 35 year old having revenge porn posted of them, or a 72 year old falling down a facebook conspiracy rabbit hole is a-ok.
This legislation was half-baked, forced through with little-to-no debate, stands to worsen the stranglehold of monopolised tech. It places the responsibility of parenting onto facebook, twitter, etc. which are the last entities in the damn world that should get to define 'safety' or police responsible usage. It does absolutely nothing to address the serious fundamental problems that pervade our modern, highly concentrated technology ecosystems, and actually gives them a free pass to allow the sites to fester even more (bringing in more profit as people doom-scroll longer, viewing more ads, when their specific fears and annoyances are deliberately tabulated and curated to make them as angry, paranoid, isolated, unhappy, and antagonistic as possible) by saying that it's a foregone conclusion that social media is evil, and we can't fix that, so why even try? /s
If they actually wanted to fix this problem, investing in education and help resources, probing into the design and function of these sites would be the way to do it. We've just scored a massive own goal at Zuckerberg, et. al's benefit, by asking them to police themselves and sacrificing everyone over the age of 16 to the hellscape of media as it is, instead of as it could be.
I'm 63 and addicted to social media. Checkmate government lackey.
Banning social media is the easy cowardly thing to do. Are our representatives to afraid to regulate big tech?
Force these shitters to make their products healthier for all age groups. Yes it's hard. Grow the fuck up, put on your big boy underpants and do your fucking job.
Force these shitters to make their products healthier for all age groups.
There's a lot of nuance here, but in general I agree. Hank (of vlogbrothers and SciShow fame), summed this problem up brilliantly. To paraphrase: social media is engagement based, not quality based. Upvote/like content on all you want, but misinformation, propaganda, rage bait, and doom-scrolling fodder will dominate any platform where the only valued metric is eyeball time.
So, the top-down solution would be to somehow strictly define how for-profit ranked media feeds and news aggregators are allowed to operate. Unintended consequences of such a law aside, I think it's possible to legally define a "well-behaved" social media site, but it won't be easy.
Begin with the "cherry-picking":
Disinformation gets cut out.
Fact-checking is protected-speech, not immediately-auto-deleted-because-it-harms-profitable-disinformation.
Ideological-prejudice gets cut out.
The major racisms: sex/gender racism, skin racism, class racism, & national racism, get stomped.
Correct & true journalism ( going to require independent ratings for individuals & organizations & for sub-branches-of-organizations ) gets automatically & consistently boosted.
You put those in-place, & MASSIVE improvement is inescapable.
The Problem(tm)??
Big Tech WON'T TOLERATE anything interfering with their highjacking of the world, with their asserting their claim to monarchic/polyarchic world rule.
EVER.
Try linking a Wikipedia article, to fact-check something, on yt..
Autodeleted!
Rabies is their means-of-gaining-possession-of-the-world, & NOTHING can be tolerated to interfere with their rabies/means.
No matter how many humans die, in which circumstances their platforms helped enforce.
For-profit-corporations are psychopaths, by default..
So long as we continue maintaining-otherwise, they continue winning..
until it's too late.
( & we don't get told when it is too late, either: that's movie-fantasy plot-point, not reality )
_ /\ _
Real question: how is anyone supposed to implement this without eliminating anonymity for those services?
German ID already has a feature for this if I remember correctly. You can use it to cryptographically prove your age without revealing your identity. Problem is, no one is trusting that it's really anonymous.
Those under 16 will definitely see this as patronising. In a way, they're right. Social media is bad for everybody—not just young people. It needs to be destroyed.
This sounds good on paper until you realize that what is considered "social media" is up to whoever happens to hold that position. Even ignoring the fact that it's unenforceable anyway, unless you require a real ID, wish is just straight up worse for all sorts of reasons.
The idea is nice, but actually putting it into law without opening the door to censorship and other side effects is just not plausible.
Edit: also, Everytime you read about a poll like this, ask yourself: what was the question they asked? Did it provide any context? Did it require any understanding of the actual underlying issues and laws? Or was it some variation of "think of the children"?
I think the question was; "how can we protect the kids when obviously their parents have failed?"
Parent here. Having an extra reason to explain why my son won’t be doing something that some of his friends are is helpful.
Libs will do anything but touch the corp :v
I'm just waiting until people realise that it won't work.
It makes me wonder if the result of this ban in Australia will see a rise in forums and chat rooms.
Ffs. Don’t copy us germany. The social media ban is not a good policy.
i dunno ab this bc social media is vague. corporate sites that pump out politically divisive content, misinformation, harmful content, etc. should be a bigger target? when i was a teenager, using social media platforms to connect to queer spaces was essential for me, but i was on reddit and tumblr rather than instagram or tiktok. its a tough line between protecting minors and restricting their freedom on their behalf. sucks that parents cant just step up and do what's right, because the law can be unnecessarily suffocating. at the very least, seems like its the companies, not the kids, who'd be punished. curious to see how this plays out.
edit: spelling is hard
An even higher percentage — 82% — were "absolutely certain" or "somewhat certain" that social media use is in some way bad for children and teenagers.
What's the percentage of those who are "absolutely certain" or "somewhat certain" that authoritarian adults wanting to control teenagers' lives out of a belief that the former know what's actually best for the latter is "in some way bad" for children and teenagers?
Whatever it is, it certainly includes me.
From what I understand of the Australian law, companies are prohibited from requiring a government-issued ID. In practical terms, how can this law be implemented, then? Bypassing a prompt that asks for a birthday is as easy as just lying. Other than requiring an ID, I honestly can't fathom a way this would actually work. I suppose you could require a active credit card number, but that would exclude adults and kids over 16.
It seems that most in Germany do not understand they'll give even more of their online freedom away for no net gain.
Let's mandate state-sanctioned age verification. Some service may accept this, other won't. First loss. Then, some kids will get around that with complacent parents. Other will be pressured into it. In the end, it won't work as a full ban. So, either turn a blind eye to the whole situation (then why bother in the first place), or make it worse: only one account per ID maybe. Big second loss there. And even if it works, it's ignoring that some sites that would qualify as "social media" are the only communication outlet some people have. Third huge loss.
This will only be a terrible annoyance to everyone, prevent some services from growing or even exist, to the benefit of kids using their parents accounts anyway or VPNing around it. They learned how to do that very quickly for other online content.
Laws and rules that are unenforceable at scale are only useful to pin more faults on people when needed, not to help them.
Lets do it in the US too.
It's not like those republicans in government are gonna use this "kids addicted to social media" as an excuse to enforce ID verifications to go online, right? Think about the children!
Lots of people believe things not supported by science.
News at 11.
I mean science does show this generation has very high incidence of anxiety, depression, suicide etc. Not saying social media is all of it, but it's probably a very big cause.