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Conservative US influencer Candace Owens is barred from New Zealand weeks after a ban from Australia (apnews.com)

submitted 2 weeks ago by MicroWave to c/world

51 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Summary

Candace Owens, a U.S. conservative commentator, has been denied a visa to enter New Zealand for a speaking tour after being banned from Australia.

Australian officials barred her in October, citing her Holocaust denial remarks and potential to incite discord, following calls from Jewish groups.

New Zealand immigration laws prohibit entry to individuals banned from other countries.

Owens, known for controversial statements on topics like Black Lives Matter and vaccines, had planned to discuss free speech and Christianity at events in both countries. Tickets for her tour remain on sale.

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[–] FlashMobOfOne 95 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It's nice that some countries are willing to institute consequences for fascist influencers. I'm eager to see how the social media ban affects things down the line for Australian young people, too.

[–] Buffalox 39 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It's illegal in many countries to falsify historic facts.
USA is not a "golden" standard in that regard, but more like a low end developing country with no real rules.

[+] [email protected] -25 points 2 weeks ago (3 children)

Russia has done good work in that area too. They make it a strict crime to spread false information.

[–] Buffalox 16 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

I think you mean true information can be a crime in Russia.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

It rather depends on who is determining what is "true" doesn't it?

[–] Buffalox 8 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

Truth about an objective fact is not something you can subjectively decide. You can't have your own facts or your own truth.
Russia is at war after illegally invading Ukraine, is an objectively true statement, but is an illegal statement in Russia.

[+] [email protected] -8 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

"Duh"

But laws are decided by humans. And humans are falable. One person's "objective fact" is another person's "lie".

So when you give a state power to punish people for lying you have to ask yourself - "who is deciding what 'true' is?" in that scenario. And will they be the ones deciding it in the future?

[–] Buffalox 6 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

You have no clue what you are talking about, the falsifying of history that is illegal is very well defined, as for example denial of holocaust. This is not something that is arbitrarily decided by political changes, but is based on actual well documented historical facts, only denied by extremists.

Just because Putin uses similar rhetoric, against people who call the war a war, doesn't mean the 2 are the same. There's a huge difference between a well functioning democracy, and an authoritarian dictatorship.

[–] [email protected] -3 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

"only denied by extremists"

And what happens when they are behind the bench?

[–] Rice_Daddy 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm curious about these arguments that people put forward. Pretending to be some kind of 'absolutist'. Are you really so deluded that you think these efforts to address misinformation and extremism might somehow be used by bad faith actor? Like 'we shouldn't do this, what if the bad guys are in charge?'. We all know that when they're in power they wouldn't care about the laws or would just make their own up!

Or are you batting for the fascists and autocrats and want to give them more power faster?

[–] [email protected] -1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

There are levels of extremists. It's not clear "good" and "bad". Look at the US who is putting s vaccine denier in charge of health policy.

Vaccines objectively work. That is the truth. But "Truth" isn't always universally agreed upon.

Or are you batting for the fascists and autocrats and want to give them more power faster?

Don't be a dick.

[–] Rice_Daddy 3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Science is a bad example. It's a field where our understanding continues to develop. Whether something has happened or not, like the Holocaust, or Russia invading Ukraine, are completely different.

'Vaccines works' can mean a lot of things, different types of vaccines, for different issues, and different side effects, and how people personally weigh side effects with the benefit.

That said, you don't stop trying to do the right thing because it might backfire, because not doing anything at all will probably baby make things worse.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Politicians shouldn't consider whether the laws they pass may have bad consequences later on?

[–] Rice_Daddy 1 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

What made you think they shouldn't?

[–] [email protected] 1 points 2 weeks ago

Your cavalier attitude towards not caring if laws may back-fire or not.

[–] Buffalox 1 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

These people are insane, so then it's obviously no longer a well functioning democracy, and fair and reasonable laws cannot be expected. It will probably be illegal to show documented actual facts about how they lied their way to power.

[–] [email protected] -2 points 2 weeks ago

So "all is good" and "all is lost" are the only two viable options then?

[–] Paragone 1 points 2 weeks ago

THE most-famous convict in the entire-world, Yehoshua "Jesus" benJoseph, agreed with you,

while calling legalists "Hypocrites!"..

I don't hold the Christian bible to be my scripture ( it's contaminated, it blocked-out Gospel of Mary, while including idiocies, etc ), there's some good points in it, sometimes..

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%202&version=AMP

has some interesting perspective on judging..

WHEN you've got narcissism/machiavellianism/sociopathy-psychopathy/nihilism/sadism/systemic-dishonesty judging,

THEN it isn't going to tolerate accountability, responsibility, etc.

It's going to murder-from-its-world accountability & responsibility, as the psychopaths who rule some countries already do.

The ICC's supposed to get precisely those people, but apparently France has decided that those who didn't agree to ICC's jurisdiction are exempt from being arrested.

Russia exemplifies outright DarkHexad ( the 6 factors of human-evil I've found, identified above, you've probably heard of DarkTriad, the 3 admitted by the professional psychologists ), & its judgement is intentionally DarkHexad.

Some reject truth because "truth" gives their identity, or faction, or political-power, or wealth, gain.

ALWAYS this kind of thing is fighting-for-ownership-of-the-world..

Even the incompetently-drafted-laws which we enact while "pretending" they won't be used to abuse the ones who never committed crime, are systematic dishonest-judgement, but in enacting, not in judging-according-to-the-enacted-law.

As for "truth is a fact you cannot decide: it just is", well, in some physics-cases, that may well be true, but in all statistically determined physics that no-longer is true, is it?

3-sigmas is "discovered" in some branches of science, but 5-sigmas is "discovered" in particle-physics, right?

There's decision going on, there..

Fundamentally, IF someone won't accept responsibility for their own nondecision or their decision, THEN Universe is just going to keep recycling their Continuum/Soul, FOREVER, until it earns integrity.

Universe recycles ALL energies contained within it, whether physical, like waves ( as "particles" actually are, in QM ), or immaterial, like meaning/knowing, or probability-waves/will/intent.

Law, like engineering, is essentially: you create work which DOESN'T PERMIT malfunction.

All you have to do is to decide how much you're going to pay to achieve a certain degree-of-certainty in prohibiting malfunction.

Want a perfect-law?

it's going to require serious work.

Shoddy law? that can be done quickly, without too much effort, right?

However, the more laws there are, the more their interactions become complex..

& then RightLaw becomes more & more & more costly!

Worse, ideologues enact laws whenever they can, so as to break considered-reasoning from the legislation & legal-practice processes..

So, yes the dishonest, & the ideological/prejudiced/"religious"/programmed will intentionally "interpret" laws so as to do harm to whomever they're contempting..

& shoddy law cannot be "rightly" interpreted because it wasn't ever right, in the 1st place..

But that doesn't in ANY way negate the responsibility of the ones judging, when they're judging.

Russia's government is openly evil: they even sent incinerators along with their troops, for sake of eradicating evidence/accountability, into Ukraina.

Don't be a "bot" for them, by pushing that that's as valid as proper uprightness, though.

They can "decide" that objectivity is criminality, & that disinformation authorized by their regime is what "True" means,

but gaslighters are gaslighters.

Never help them against integrity.

Never help local corruption against integrity.

Cut them every time, & teach them that their commitment-to-enforcing-disinformation is going to COST them, among the upright.

Integrity requires it of us.

_ /\ _

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 weeks ago

lol

[–] [email protected] 10 points 2 weeks ago

You forgot the air-quotes, comrade.

[–] ShittyBeatlesFCPres 36 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

I don’t know that the relatively anodyne descriptor “conservative commentator” and simply “visa” are strong enough to provide an accurate portrayal of the situation. (The article goes more into it; I’m referring to the lede.) She wasn’t going scuba diving and visiting the Sydney Opera House on a tourist visa. She was applying for a work visa and she’s apparently frequently crossed the line into holocaust denial. A lot of countries wouldn’t grant that visa.

I don’t really know much about her — I just read bits of her Wikipedia article — but to me, this sounds more like denying Alex Jones a work visa than something like banning a random “conservative commentator” like Megyn Kelly from visiting Aukland on holiday.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 2 weeks ago

I think your summary is accurate.

[–] xc2215x 33 points 2 weeks ago

Good move by New Zealand.

[–] WaxedWookie 19 points 2 weeks ago

Or: Klandace Owens learns about using strong borders to keep undesirables out.

[–] CeeBee_Eh 14 points 2 weeks ago

her Holocaust denial remarks

That tracks, because she's been going on about flat earth crap lately, and the Ven diagram of racist and flat earthers have a large overlap.

Actually the flat earther diagram is almost completely enveloped by the racist circle, specifically the "Nazi" variety of horrible people.

[–] HootinNHollerin 10 points 2 weeks ago

No one should let that trash in to their country

[–] FauxPseudo 8 points 2 weeks ago

What an unfortunate thing to happen on free dozen eggs night

[–] Sir_Premiumhengst 4 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Genuine question, so if I can't enter China for... reasons..., does that mean the Kiwis won't let me vacation in the Shire?

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Depends what those reasons are. Conspicuously bad-mouthing the Chinese government in a way that can be traced back to your real world identity might get you banned from China, but nowhere else, for example.

If it's something to do with drugs, illegal shipping of goods, a criminal record or visa shenanigans, any country would reserve their right to send you packing. That doesn't mean that would happen, but it might be in your interests to contact your country's New Zealand embassy, (or one of their consulates if there's one nearer to you), be really, really pleasant with whoever you talk to, and put your question to them, and ask if you can get their response in writing... and then stay the heck out of trouble until you try to go there.

It could save you a couple of long, unnecessary journeys and a heap of expense.

None of this guarantees you still won't be sent home even if the embassy gives you the all-clear in writing, by the way. But if you get a firm "no" from the embassy, you'll know not to go.

[–] Sir_Premiumhengst 2 points 2 weeks ago

Thanks for the reply! No, I wasn't thinking about any "real" criminal activity. I'm from Germany and thus I'm very outspoken against the systematic murder of minorities. I may have peacefully protested at times and always wonder if China has my face stored somewhere on a server ready to barr me from access to their country, should I ever want to visit, which is unlikely.

[–] skeezix 4 points 2 weeks ago

We’re having fuck-candice-owens parties here in NZ.

[–] regdog 1 points 2 weeks ago

Good

[–] Cyberjin 1 points 2 weeks ago

Oh I didn't think she had that much power and influence, I guess I was wrong

[+] AidsKitty -17 points 2 weeks ago (4 children)

If you are a person who doesn't defend freedom of speech then you are not a defender of democracy. You can't have one without the other.

[–] Tattorack 15 points 2 weeks ago

Free speech =/= Speech without consequence.

She's free to speak whatever she wants. She's also free to live with the consequences of her speech.

[–] [email protected] 15 points 2 weeks ago

"Free" does not mean "unregulated". Fire in a crowded theater. Everyone who flogs the free speech argument in the service of promoting fascism can fuck right off.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

This sounds so good on paper, but completely falls apart without carefully defining free speech. Like, what if I hire actors with prop weapons to march around minority neighborhoods and scream that they'll shoot any non-whites who try to vote?

You think that fun performance art is going to be healthy for democracy? Really?

What if I use AI to make convincing video footage of politicians I disagree with mutilating dogs and then graphically fucking their corpses? Do you think my commentary on their lack of support for dog shelters is going to foster democratic dialog, or do you think that maybe some voters will develop a viscerally unpleasant disgust and have trouble looking at them or engaging in what they have to say?

What if you buy a botnet and use it to convince both sides of the aisle that the other candidate is an authoritarian who will destroy democracy and try to control their life. Or to send death threats to people who publicly admit to being trans?

It is important to make room for marginalized voices to be heard, yes, that is essential for democracy, but there are also tons of bad actors who will try to use the very freedom you're trying to protect to deny others that freedom. A completely laissez faire approach to free speech will ultimately serve to silence the marginalized and further empower the wealthy.

[+] AidsKitty -7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Threatening others is a crime. Generating false AI videos to harm another person's reputation is a crime. Opinions are not crimes. It's really not that complicated. People want to pretend it is complicated so they can control what can be said to gain power. Really not complicated.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

But what if your opinion is threatening to others? If you believe that white people are inherently superior to other races and it is right for them to be served by the inferior races, then expressing that opinion is inherently threatening to many non-whites.

Sure, I've given hyperbolic examples, because I wanted to demonstrate that you can use freedom of expression to make threats, but there will also be examples that are in more of a grey area. There's nothing inherently threatening about the Confederate flag. If you had flown it in 1600 people would've just said "cool flag, what does it mean?".

Now however, many people see it as a threat, a constant reminder of how things used to be for their ancestors. Expressing your opinion by flying that flag says to those people "I want your children to live as your forefathers did"

Now, not everyone who flies that flag is making a threat, but some of them absolutely are. So what do we do?

I'm not saying I have a one size fits all solution. Simply banning anything that neo-nazis adopt clearly isn't practical and could also be easily abused by the government to quash dissent. I'm just pointing out that it's not a simple fucking problem.

[+] AidsKitty -8 points 2 weeks ago (2 children)

It is pretty simple. If an action\opinion is deemed threatening then laws are created to stop that action\opinion. If there is no law making it illegal then it is just an opinion. So you can have a flag with a swastika, a confederate flag, BLM, OR LGBTQ.

[–] [email protected] 7 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

So your baseline is whether or not something is criminal.

That's easily solved, create laws outlawing the undesirable behaviour, such as the ones in Germany regarding Nazi paraphernalia.

Or the ones defining potentially damaging behaviour as a reason for denying visa access..... give it a sec, I'm sure you'll get it.

Obligatory, countries outside of the US exist and, I imagine rather inconveniently for your argument, have their own laws.

But if your definition of the basis of democracy is freedom of speech except for when there is a law specifically preventing it then you probably have bigger concerns than weak foundations for your arguments.

[–] AidsKitty -3 points 2 weeks ago (1 children)

Yes freedom of speech ends at criminal action or illegal behavior. That is where those boundaries exist. If they do not end at that juncture then where do they end?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago) (1 children)

So , given that New Zealand and Australia are using their law based framework to deny visa access it's all good right ?

I also noted you conveniently didn't address this in your response.

Yes freedom of speech ends at criminal action or illegal behavior. That is where those boundaries exist. If they do not end at that juncture then where do they end?

I'm not saying that laws aren't useful for this purpose I'm saying that using laws as a baseline without accounting for laws being different in different places is a weak argument foundation, not even mentioning that laws change over time based on unlawful actions being allowed and previously lawful actions now being denied, so not only do you need to account for geographic location you also need to account for time.

As an example: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67601647

By your proposed framework, you're cool with this because their freedom of speech (or i suppose expression in this instance) is illegal.

To be clear, if you are cool with that, you do you, I'm not your parent, nor am i any moral or ethical authority. I'm using it as an example to gauge how married you are to the idea of laws as absolutes when it comes to freedom.

[–] AidsKitty 1 points 2 weeks ago

Yes i dont have a problem with how Australia or New Zealand run their countries. They can ban whomever they wish. I do have a problem with people wishing we would implement these same standards as it would be a clear violation of freedom of speech. It sucks the kiwis are so limited in their ability to express themselves or their opinions but that is what they got.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 2 weeks ago* (last edited 2 weeks ago)

Dude, you're complaining about a nation using its laws to prevent her from speaking. If your requirement is if laws prevent something it's fine, then I don't know what you're discussing anymore. I think you need to return to the basics of your position and reconsider it for a moment.

[–] Pilferjinx 11 points 2 weeks ago

Intolerance to the intolerant.

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