this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2024
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New research reveals serious privacy flaws in the data practices of new internet connected cars in Australia. It’s yet another reason why we need urgent reform of privacy laws.

Modern cars are increasingly equipped with internet-enabled features. Your “connected car” might automatically detect an accident and call emergency services, or send a notification if a child is left in the back seat.

But connected cars are also sophisticated surveillance devices. The data they collect can create a highly revealing picture of each driver. If this data is misused, it can result in privacy and security threats.

A report published today analysed the privacy terms from 15 of the most popular new car brands that sell connected cars in Australia.

This analysis uncovered concerning practices. There are enormous obstacles for consumers who want to find and understand the privacy terms. Some brands also make inaccurate claims that certain information is not “personal information”, implying the Privacy Act doesn’t apply to that data.

Some companies are also repurposing personal information for “marketing” or “research”, and sharing data with third parties.

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[–] lunarul 78 points 1 month ago (2 children)

My cars are not modern enough for that, but I always carry a surveillance device in my pocket to make up for it.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago (1 children)

At least that one has an off button

[–] daddy32 10 points 1 month ago (3 children)
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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (17 children)

Eh, my phone is reasonably unlikely to spy on me. I use GrapheneOS with location off, no Google Play services most of the time (I have a separate profile for that BS), and the only app with location access is Organic Maps. My carrier could rat on me, but I don't think Google could.

But I have a smart watch (Pixel 2), but at least it's WiFi only so it can only rat on me when I get home. So I guess there's that.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Your carrier HAS ratted on you. Under the incoming US administration, I've little doubt they will again.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

I wonder if this applies to MVNOs, or if their data is somehow aggregated. I haven't used a major carrier for over a decade.

That said, I can't really do anything about the carrier because I'd like to continue receiving calls and getting mobile data. So I'll cut down as much as I can, and to me that means cutting out Google.

I've considered switching to a VOIP service and running everything over a VPN (doesn't help with location, but cuts everything else out), but I haven't found one that's reliable. I need:

  • SMS/MMS
  • reliable wake when receiving calls/texts
  • reasonable voice quality

Bonus points if I can receive calls on my computer (I'd also love to switch to a Linux phone). If I can find that, I'll switch.

[–] lunarul 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

If your phone is connected to the cell network, then you can be tracked.

https://youtu.be/wVyu7NB7W6Y

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 month ago

Yup, but not by Google, at least not directly.

The problem is I want to be able to receive calls and texts while out and about. My next step is to try switching to a VOIP service and only get 2FA codes on my carrier number. That doesn't stop location tracking from cell towers, but it does reduce how much they know about me, and it makes it easier to switch later (i.e. if making and receiving calls on my computers are good enough).

Privacy is a process, and it's an unfortunately frustrating one as companies sell out their customers more and more.

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[–] vonxylofon 61 points 1 month ago (8 children)
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[–] [email protected] 36 points 1 month ago (1 children)

It shouldnt just be called a privacy risk. Its a safety risk because it enables stalking with little to zero effort on the stalkers side.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Please describe this zero-to-little effort attack chain.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 month ago (1 children)

You go to a data broker that sells "anonymized" location data and give them money and a region of interest. Done.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago (2 children)

Yup. Police do that, and I'm guessing it wouldn't be too hard if you're persistent (claim to be a private investigator or something).

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (3 children)

Found it (In german but we have translators these days...) https://netzpolitik.org/2024/databroker-files-firma-verschleudert-36-milliarden-standorte-von-menschen-in-deutschland/

This is about phone location data, but i dont see any reason why cars would be any different, they create less privacy sensitive data than phones in a way.

The people that wrote this article actually got a huge amount of slightly older data for free just as a sample. But this is the scale these data brokers operate at:

The data itself comes from the US company Datastream Group. It offers such location data on a monthly subscription basis. According to the offer, it comes from up to 163 countries and is updated hourly.

You can buy huge amounts of location data for anyone anywhere that uses a standard google or apple phone. Im not sure if you even need to have some random app, like socials or anything with ads in it, installed that leaks this data or if its just google and apple themselves that sell it. All you need is a single identifying point of confirmed time+location for your target and then you can reconstruct their entire movement from that.

This has very obvious and less obvious horrible implications. Things like tracking victims of abuse, finding out peoples home address after meeting them once, tracking military personnel movement, tracking people going to sex related locations, prisons, abortion clinics, endless potential for abuse.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 1 month ago

Awesome!

The difference, though, is I can turn off my phone if I want to, but I can't really turn off the car tracking unless I tear apart the car to remove the antenna (or at least the power). Some cars make it easy in the fuse box, but others make it a PIA.

I'm planning to switch to a VOIP number and only use my SIM for data and SMS 2FA. Then I can turn off/remove the SIM as needed. Once I don't need SMS anymore, I can get a data only SIM and hopefully hide among the various iPads and smart watches.

I wish I could trust my carrier, but articles like the one you mentioned remind me that I really can't.

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[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago

claim to be a private investigator or something

Oh no absolutely not necessary, this is commercially for sale data that anyone can buy as long as you dont make it obvious that you are up to no good. I will see if i can find the last article i saw about someone testing this themselves.

[–] crystalmerchant 35 points 1 month ago

~~If this data is misused~~

When this data is misused

[–] [email protected] 32 points 1 month ago

Modern cars have been privacy invading for a while. Goes back to the ownership torch thing again. Tesla can disable your car if they want. Why pay so much up front if you're not in control? Old vehicles are the way to go.

How would you even know about any of this stuff? I am not fortunate enough to afford a new vehicle but I imagine when you're at the dealer they're not like "so these cameras will watch you all the time... For safety and security, of course..."

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 weeks ago

I like the time they implied it would somehow protect people from sexual assault, but just ended up just revealing how personal the data they have can be

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (2 children)

So how can I disconnect my car from the internet?

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Rip out whatever transmitters they put in?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 weeks ago

And frustratingly, it's different in each car. Sometimes it's in the center console, sometimes it's behind the infotainment system, and sometimes it's buried under the dash somewhere. Sometimes you'll get lucky and it'll have its own fuse, and other times it'll cause issues depending on which part you disconnect (SIM vs antenna).

It really sucks.

[–] modus 3 points 4 weeks ago

In general, don't allow it to connect to wifi. As for specific makes/models that might have their own uplink, look into disconnecting antennas.

[–] [email protected] 12 points 1 month ago (3 children)

My next vehicle is going to be fully mechanical with a carburetor and no computerized bullshit.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 month ago

I'm really hoping Aptera is successful. Their main selling point is "solar mobility" basically, they designed a hyper-efficient car that looks sort of odd because efficiency is the main design factors. They hope to gain meaningful charge from solar panels on the vehicle because it's so efficient. They're thinking like 50 miles a day in someplace like California.

But they've also committed to being open with their vehicle and architecture by providing first-party spare parts and supporting open source stuff like open pilot.

If they keep on their consumer-friendly path, I'm hopeful for my data privacy if I get a future car from them

[–] PalmTreeIsBestTree 11 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Just get an early OBD 2 car with no internet access and you are good or get an EFI kit for an old car as well. Carbs suck.

[–] GreenKnight23 2 points 1 month ago (2 children)

a well tuned carb will outperform an EFI system

for about two hours. 🤣

EFI is dynamic and adjusts the system as needed. However, a carb can be fixed with almost anything. I have a feeling that some of the older parts for EFI vehicles will be bought by major manufacturers and trashed/over priced to improve new vehicle sales and long term data collection goals. almost exactly how GM parts are today.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

"Alfa builds a car to be as good as a car can be....briefly".
-Jezza

[–] PalmTreeIsBestTree 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I mean if you are going to live off the grid, then I would just stock up on carb parts then haha. Otherwise, old school port injection EFI is extremely reliable. Just get a Toyota tundra or LandCruiser with the V8 without rust and you are good for 500,000 miles at least.

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[–] RememberTheApollo_ 12 points 1 month ago
[–] [email protected] 6 points 1 month ago

This is why I'll own older cars for the rest of my life.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Great. Now I can't jerk off in my car anymore!

[–] latenightnoir 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Or maybe this is the perfect opportunity to stick it to The Man and jack off even more, exclusively in your car! Maybe get into some really freaky stuff, give'em a proper show!

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Ooh, beads and whatnot sound fun.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (8 children)

Expulsion of an enema all over the camera would be tempting if it weren't such a mess to clean up. Maybe in a rental...

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 month ago

Towels work. Put them on anything that's hard to clean up, and it'll soak it all up. Oh, and leave the windows down so there are fewer issues with smells sticking around.

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