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'Gas-station heroin' targeted in crackdowns by states and cities (www.nbcnews.com)

submitted 4 months ago by MicroWave to c/news

41 comments fedilink hide all child comments

Kratom, sometimes referred to as “gas station heroin,” is an herb with opioid- and stimulant-like effects.
It can be fatal in very high doses but is not subject to much federal regulation.
So states and cities have been banning kratom sales or enacting rules and restrictions.

all 42 comments

sorted by: hot top controversial new old

[–] [email protected] 57 points 4 months ago (7 children)

Has anyone here done Kratom? It’s a very light intoxicant, and when you take a little too much, you puke it up quickly and efficiently. I’m sure it’s possible to OD if you have an iron stomach, but unlike heroin (which I also have personal experience with) where a few CC’s on the needle is the difference between life and death, it takes a stupendous amount of Kratom to get even remotely close to the danger zone.

These laws restricting Kratom seem like they are designed to steer people towards pills more than enhancing public safety. Boo.

[–] clif 37 points 4 months ago (2 children)

When it got banned in my area the "expert" witness supporting the ban was someone who owned a pain management clinic that primarily prescribed pills.

... No conflict there, no siree.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago

I love it when corrupt shit is this transparent. I hate it that this still doesn't matter, because nothing is done.

[–] cheese_greater 5 points 4 months ago

God, the absolute irony and filth

[–] [email protected] 24 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yeah kratom has been catching shit for at least a decade. Despite the fact that it's safer than alcohol and has been shown to be effective in helping opiate addicts recover. Pharma companies can't make money off it so obviously it should be illegal

[–] [email protected] 6 points 4 months ago (2 children)

But why can’t they? It seems like they could just grow it and cover the entire spectrum of pain management if they wanted to.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

It can’t be patented because they didn’t invent it. So while they could sell it, it’s much less profitable. One of many perverse incentives that exist in our insane IP system.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago

Wish I could tell you. They didn't do it with pot either despite it having plenty of medicinal applications. Maybe they perceive it as more of a threat than a money making opportunity? It's less addictive than other opiates (from what I understand) and we know that addiction was part of their business model with opiates . It helps people recover from addiction in a way that doesn't require life-long treatment so maybe it would be a net-negative in their eyes. Idk I just woke up and I'm rambling lol

[–] Postmortal_Pop 14 points 4 months ago

Kratom also has a long history of being used to treat withdraw from opiates which led to several Southeast Asia countries trying to exterminate it because the government was invested in the heroin and opium trades.

The US would be all about that.

[–] Waveform 10 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I've taken it for years with no issue except constipation from time to time. Kratom is about as impactful to me as an acetaminophen pill and a couple cups of coffee, which is good since I have to be careful about which substances I put into my body. I take one teaspoon infrequently. The key to taking it is to not take too much. Less=more, since higher dosages start having an inverse effect.

Articles like this one only seem to be creating hysteria where none should exist. We need more proper studies on the plant, but for now people should treat it like anything else: don't overdo it. I mean, you wouldn't take 15 acetaminophen tablets, and likewise you shouldn't take dozens of grams of kratom at once.

Disclaimer: some people can't keep their dosages low and they will develop a problem, so be careful with the stuff (or don't even try it if you are worried about becoming addicted).

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Thank you for that disclaimer. I had to babysit a friend while they went through an accelerated detox for kratom, it was ugly. I’ve babysat friends detoxing off heroin so I thought this would be ezpz, but it was honestly just as shitty a time as heroin detox. This was someone who had increased consumption to about 2-3 heaping teaspoons at least twice a day over 8 years or so.

Edit - After reading some of the other comments i want to clarify that I have no concern about overdose deaths from kratom whatsoever. My only concern is that I’ve seen multiple people get absolutely addicted to kratom, and the fact that anyone, of any age, can walk in to basically any store and buy this stuff with no idea of the addictive potential of it is concerning to me. I’d personally probably be happy with a ban on sale to minors and mandated harm reduction material printed on the packaging.

[–] Waveform 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It's odd how some people experience withdrawals and others don't. I've gone cold turkey several times and didn't have a bad time at all. Maybe a runny nose and some sleepiness, and that's it.

I agree it should not be sold to minors and that it should include harm-reduction info. We do it for alcohol and tobacco, after all.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Based on your original comment, I think a lot of it had to do with the volume of daily usage, not just daily usage in and of itself.

[–] Waveform 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I should have mentioned my previous usage. At at one point I was using up to three level teapoons a day, which would amount to about 7 & 1/2 gpd. I didn't do that for very long, as I wasn't in extreme physical pain.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

A cc is a very large amount, like a standard insulin syringe is 1cc total

Maybe you meant mg.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 4 months ago

I use kratom very semi regularly. It's like a miracle cure for back and joint pain for me. Threshold doses completely turn off pain in 30 minutes.

I've noticed that kratom in particular makes me absolutely wreck while playing videogames. Makes me turn into a calm, cold, and collected machine.

I don't really see any addiction potential with the powdered leaf as doses are measured in grams and taking that much of any plant material just destroys your stomach. Extracts though are a totally different animal. They're completely unregulated and there's almost no indication of what's actually in them. I've had a brand that totally does not even feel like kratom....

They all taste like complete ass, even the capsules. Like kinda a green tea type flavor but absolutely terrible. And the burps you get after.... There's also a high chance of getting the opioid itch which sucks.

I used to take kratom all the time but people started telling me I was acting very strange. I didn't feel like I was acting strange though.... So now I only take it for pain. Which it's actually quite incredible for.

[–] CobblerScholar 3 points 4 months ago

I've tried it, not for me personally I like Kava more but yeah it's a super mild mellow effect barely more intoxicating than coffee. I'd love to see the product more regulated than it is but it certainly doesn't warrant the direct comparison to opiods or heroin

[–] [email protected] 36 points 4 months ago (3 children)

"Gas Station Heroin" is tianeptine, which absolutely is s dangerous and incredibly addictive. Conflating that term with Kratom is foolish, it is mildly addictive but not super easy to get addicted to unless you like the taste of powdered ass coating your mouth multiple times a day. Tianeptine comes as easy to consume capsules with a much stronger high for your dollar. Yes Kratom comes in capsules but you'll ditch them long before you're truly addicted. I don't think any psychoactive substance should be sold in gas stations, I think it's where underage kids got the Juuls that got flavors banned and put in disposables instead. Headshops are the places that should be selling legal highs

[–] thejoker954 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

As an aside, I'm pissed about Tia. The sulfate especially worked wonders on my anxiety and depression with no major side effects.

it being in the grey market (due to shitty politics) instead of being recognized like other countries as legitimate medicine leading to it's abuse is a real problem.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

All I hear about is the side effects and it sounds like a drug id really like so I avoid it like crazy, like never tried it crazy. And I have tried several questionable things.

[–] thejoker954 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Those side effects arent the 'norm' though. They are a result of long term high dose usage. (Plus gas station quality control)

Using proper dosage (and legit formula not cut with anything else) side effects are potentially no worse than any other drug/ tricyclic antidepressant.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

no worse than any other [...] tricyclic antidepressant.

Aren't being addicting and easy to abuse properties of the tricyclic antidepressants and the reason they're rarely prescribed nowadays?

[–] thejoker954 1 points 4 months ago

Not really.

And Tianeptine is an atypical tricyclic anyways.

But to address your question specifically:

Taken from National Library of Medicine - ..."Although TCAs demonstrate equivocal efficacy with SSRIs when treating MDD, these medications cause more significant adverse effects due to their anticholinergic activity and lower threshold for overdose. Due to these factors, TCAs are typically not considered the first-line treatment for MDD, even though they have been proven highly effective in managing severe or treatment-refractory depression"...

And from wikipedia - "Adverse effects have been found to be of a similar level between TCAs and SSRIs"

..."Newer antidepressants are thought to have fewer and less severe side effects and are also thought to be less likely to result in injury or death if used in a suicide attempt, as the doses required for clinical treatment and potentially lethal overdose (see therapeutic index) are far wider in comparison."...

..."They are not considered addictive and are somewhat preferable to the monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs). The side effects of the TCAs usually come to prominence before the therapeutic benefits against depression and/or anxiety do, and for this reason, they may potentially be somewhat dangerous, as volition can be increased, possibly giving the patient a greater desire to attempt or commit suicide."...

To go back to tianeptine specifically it's basically unregulated here in the USA due to money.

Big Pharma doesn't control the patent for it so it can be made cheaply and in bulk.

Combined with it being a TCA (aka 'old version') FDA and others have no reason to try and fight the corporate overlords to classify it as a legitimate drug (despite its use as such in multiple countries).

This of course put it in the grey market. It's a drug that can make you feel good and you dont need (can't get) a prescription for it. And it can be made cheaply and easily.

Of course people are gonna abuse the situation.
Classifying it as medication and requiring a prescription prevents the abuse.

Seriously you have to take waaay above the recommended dosage regularly to get addicted to Tia.

Most of the abuse/addiction came from people who were already abusing opioids and switched to Tia as a 'better' alternative.

Sprinkle in some dumb kids and shady manufacturers (again regulation would fix this) and boom you got your hot new craze to scare people with.

[–] OlinOfTheHillPeople 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I've always known it as something that addicts use to try getting clean. I don't think I've ever met anyone who regularly uses it recreationally.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 4 months ago

Kratom? I use it recreationally, never been an opioid addict but I am an alcoholic and it's a really nice way to relax at the end of a stressful day without drinking. It's definitely addictive, but I find it so difficult to stomach enough doses frequently enough to really feel any withdrawal when I run out. I have heard from people that do manage to get fully addicted that withdrawal is 1000x worse than normal junk, but that's anecdotal.

[–] [email protected] 21 points 4 months ago (2 children)

91 national OD deaths in a year, in a country of 330M, seems... Pretty okay. That's really not significant. "Implicated in" deaths simply isn't the same thing at all.

[–] cheese_greater 10 points 4 months ago

I'm denying there were any deaths attributable to this. This reeks of bullshit

[–] FlyingSquid 7 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Maybe not a lot of ODs, but it is addictive and bad for your health long-term.

And yes, I would say the same about cigarettes. Make doctors prescribe them and taper people down slowly in conjunction with pharmaceutical help to get them to quit.

[–] clif 8 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Is it addictive? Like, physically addictive or "that was nice, I'd like to do it again" addictive? I've known people who used it daily for months and quit with no reported problems, side effects, withdrawals, etc. Of course, my sample size is 3 so this is anecdotal.

[–] FlyingSquid 4 points 4 months ago

As I'm sure you know, unbiased information about these things is hard to come by, but for what it's worth, here are some sources which do claim it has serious dependency issues.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32682371/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/prescription-drug-abuse/in-depth/kratom-opioid-withdrawal/art-20402170

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0376871624002503

[–] [email protected] 1 points 4 months ago

It can be very physically addictive.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago

I don't think that, given the current evidence we have, that we can reasonably put them even close to cigarettes in terms of long-term health consequences. "Addictive", by itself, doesn't seem like a strong reason to ban or even put particularly significant regulations in place.

Given the scope and scale of opiate deaths in the US, I don't think that it's even realistic to say that it's even close to as bad as any opiate or opioid. Overall, I'd say that we're wasting valuable resources in any attempts to regulate it, things that could be better spent one opiate/opioid addiction mitigation. It would be nice if we didn't have limited resources, but we do, and we shouldn't be putting attention on minor-league stuff when we have much, much bigger problems.

[–] cheese_greater 17 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

I love how the line is always people don't know what it is or they are putting in their body...

Ok so what's the solution?

Fucking bannit!!! No educating, no harm reduction or offering better, safer drugs we understand better.

Nope, take away their toys!

Its the ultimate violation of Chesterton's Fence. Tear it down, don't replace it, nothing to see here, plebs

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

It's not alcohol, nicotine, caffeine, or (depending on your locale) pot so obviously people shouldn't be taking it. Fuckin fun police

[–] cheese_greater 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Edit: God help us when they come for the dihydrogen monoxide

[–] [email protected] 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Dihydrogen monoxide

[–] cheese_greater 2 points 4 months ago

Thats the one :D

[–] [email protected] 14 points 4 months ago

Kratom is so far from heroin...

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago

Yet more fear-mongering. Have we not learned what the red flags are, yet?

[–] [email protected] 9 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Kratom is nothing like heroin don't conflate it with tianeptine.