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I don't think y'all inside liberal spaces like lemmy and reddit are honestly aware of how politically ignorant most Americans are.
"How could they NOT know?! Head all up in Fox News and nothing else?!"
Couple of anecdotes, so take them as you will.
My wife is Filipina, been here 3-years. She didn't think Trump was such a bad guy. All she knew was what her ex-husband told her.
We were at the Mexican restaurant the other day and the server saw a pic of Trump on my phone while I read CNN, wanted to engage me in a conversation about who I was voting for and clearly favored Trump. The man barely speaks English.
A year after Trump came into office my sister (62-yo at the time) only had a vague notion that he wasn't a nice guy, not really on the up and up, but maybe the hate was just politics? If my sister got a robocall saying Biden ate a puppy, she would run right out and vote Trump.
Yes, these people are ignorant. But they're not reading like you and I. We're interested, engaged, or we wouldn't be here, and you wouldn't be reading this if you weren't.
Not even going to get into how the GOP is flooding the media and internet to make all this sound like white noise, "politics". But these Trump voters are not all rabid lunatics. And don't dare come in a space like this and say, "They actually have a point on this particular thing..." or "They're wrong, but they believe this way because..." You will get shouted down and shut out.
If the Democrats don't fight fire with fire, we're fucked. No more "high road" bullshit. The GOP's propaganda machine is winning, and no amount of gotchas or exposal of hypocrisy matters. We can no longer play fair, aspire to logic and reasoning. We have to fight dirty and WIN.
I think what you are describing is not a specifically American problem. In Germany, for example, the AfD, an extreme right-wing, openly fascist party, is unfortunately on the rise as well. This party uses almost exactly the same strategy as the conservatives in America - simplistic, often anecdotal explanations, false accusations, targeted disinformation, refusal to compromise on anything and so on. Unfortunately, this also works frighteningly well in many other countries. And the same problem seems to exist everywhere: People who are either hopelessly misinformed or not informed at all, or even unquestioningly and often downright sectarianly parroting what their leaders claim (plus those who are actually racists and fascists by conviction). I suspect that this is largely due to the fact that social media is the only source of information for many people today. The main problem with that imo is not only that social media logic favors offensive and particularly controversial content, but also that the owners of the largest platforms almost universally support authoritarian to fascist political currents because it is profitable for them. This is another reason why I think the mass demonstrations against fascism, racism and intolerance in Germany are quite important: they show people that there is still widespread rejection of these terrible ideas - and that seems essential to me, because social media easily gives a false impression of the "public opinion". It certainly seems worth a try to me. That's why I'm about to set off again to a demonstration against fascism. I recommend you Americans follow whether the IRL protests in Germany and elsewhere prove to be a suitable remedy to the general stupor in political debate. If so, this approach can easily be adopted in the US as well.
It's all true but at the same time you're missing very important thing: a lot of people support extreme right-wing parties because those are the only parties that offer solutions to their problems. One of the main issues conservative guys see today is losing privileges they used to enjoy. For example I heard a guy complaining about the fact, that when he was younger he got naked into some girl's bed and she only screamed a bit and got angry but today he would go to jail. The big difference between liberals and conservatives is that liberals see this change as a good thing. AfD and other parties are the only groups that oppose those changes and a lot of white guys are attracted to that. And it's hard to say they are wrong. For them it's all about their status, they see stopping those changes as a net benefit for them. Accusations like the one against Kevin Spacey are not making things better. The farther left you push those things the more people will be worried about their status and will start pushing back. AfD is an example of this push back. It's not all of it but it's a very important part of this dynamic.
I know a guy that got accused by some family member of rape 20 years ago, lost his job and spend years awaiting trial only to be found not guilty but with broken career and a debt. Now go tell this guy and many other guys thinking that "me too" movement went to far that "their problems" were only implanted into their heads. You and me we understand the power dynamics here and can still support "me too" despite it's flaws but many guys simply see the privileges they lost because of it. I'm assuming you would agree with me that they shouldn't have had those privileges in the first place but the fact that they are loosing them is real. That's why they are worried and are pushing back.
Yes, of course, there are many reasons why people vote for these parties. However, I very much doubt whether these parties actually offer any viable solutions or whether their popularity is due to proposals for actual solutions - imo they just make it seem that way. Just one example: the AfD does not pursue a social economic policy; quite the opposite. Nevertheless, they pretend to be on the side of the little guy by engaging in classic fascist agitation against foreigners who are supposedly taking jobs away from Germans and are therefore also supposedly to blame for the dire economic situation of many Germans. This is of course not only factually wrong, but is even aimed at a counterproductive, namely very restrictive immigration policy. It is nothing more than propaganda designed to attract voters in economically precarious circumstances, although this demographic group would be the one to suffer most from the AfD's economic policy if this party ever forms a government (basically a 1-to-1 copy of the Trumpists' strategy). Furthermore, the German economy does actually urgently need foreign workers due to demographics - and by no means only highly qualified ones. I have at least some hope that the protests currently taking place across Germany can help people understand what parties like the AfD actually stand for and thus realize that they are being duped. For those conservatives who are determined to hold on to their traditional values, I hope that the protests will make them realize that they are voting for fascists and perhaps remember what happened in 1933 when the fascists took power in Germany. For the more rational thinking folk, the protests bring a little hope because people can reassure themselves in real life that there are actually many others who neither tolerate fascism nor want this hateful political discourse that just plays into the hands of AfD and others - with all their enemy stereotypes, backwards thinking and simplistic explanations. It at least gives me a little hope when I see, as I did today, that 30,000 people took to the streets in my home town of 250,000 inhabitants to demonstrate against fascism and for an open, tolerant democracy. This might not stop the AfD, but I'd say if I can possibly contribute a bit to weaken the popularity of this fascist party, it's well worth a few hours of my time.
You're right about everything but what I'm saying is that there's something hidden a bit deeper behind all this. A lot of people don't support AfD, VOX of Konfederacja because they believe in their economic and anti-immigration policies. They are drawn to them because of they anti-progressive stances and once 'converted' they accept the other ideas. The main thing is that the further you take progressive policies the more people will start disagreeing with them and pushing back. And there's really no good solution here. We either give more rights to women and minorities and face pushback from the right or limit those policies and face pushback from the left. It's a kind of 'two steps forward one step back' situation where we took steps forward recently and I think we just have to be prepared for the step back.
Yes, that is certainly true. I just don't have an answer as to how this attitude can be dealt with reasonably in a democracy. Looking at history, I don't think there is a better system than democracy (you can of course be lucky and get a "good autocrat" of whatever couleur - but that was possible even in the days of monarchy and obviously never really worked). I realize of course that there will always be the backward-looking people. Brexit is a good example, I think ("we need to be the empire ruling the world again" - was isolationism the way to go? Doesn't seem so to me). After all, this desire for long-gone greatness has little to do with the reality of a globalized world. This attitude becomes even more problematic when you think about the most pressing problems facing humanity. Climate change. There can be no endless growth with limited resources. I think this is a fact that people just have to deal with. Musk won't be able to solve this problem with a new habitat on Mars and our promises to cut emissions seem to me nothing more than publicity promises. In short, I've come to the conclusion that this unworldly, backward-looking thinking is simply unacceptable. Nevertheless, I try to keep the peace by more or less pretending to understand the concerns of those backward-looking people. There's not much more I can do, I'm afraid. All the less so when these people try to reverse civilizational achievements such as equal rights for women. I really can't bring myself to have any sympathy for that. So yea, you are of course absolutely right: there is really no solution to this. But im affraid that there still has to be a solution as soon as possible.
I really do love this take, but I have to ask. What does fighting dirty without becoming them look like?
If you could throw out an example that makes this work I'm all for it.
I just cannot stand the idea of obtaining votes through deceit.
You don’t have to lie, you just have to appeal to emotion with your pitch. Bernie was a great example of a populist candidate who knew how to make people feel passionate about things without lying to them. He got a lot of flack for repeating the same lines, but that is all that some Americans can handle—a slogan. He was smart enough to pick ones where most Americans instantly knew what he was about, and it felt good.
Nobody really knows what “build back better” means, and it sort of implies that we’ve been damaged in some way and need repair. MAGA doesn’t really mean shit either, but it implies that we’ve tended to be pretty great, and all we need is to remember those times and recreate them. It is supercharged with Hollywood’s nostalgic eye towards the past, and it doesn’t even require you to know why Medicare is good to want to get on board with it.
So, from that perspective, democrats need marketing. They need meme reacts, iconic looks, and coolness, and they need to stop trying to stifle the candidates they have who exemplify those qualities.
If they can’t figure that shit out, they’re going to keep losing at moments that they sorely need to win.
Bernie, and Trump, and even Obama all had one thing in common: their campaigns were predicated on the notion that the status quo was bullshit and had to change. Obama was a once in a generation political talent, and he got elected on his message, and yeah he ultimately skewed to the center, but he demonstrated that the model could work.
When you get to 2016, your leading contenders are Trump, who is running on a platform of 'break everything,' Bernie, a socialist Jew from Vermont who was able to rocket to national significance on the basis of acknowledging populist anger, and Hillary, who squandered eight years of Obama administration goodwill and universal name recognition by basically coming across as a "let's get back to business as usual" candidate.
Sure, Biden was also "let's get back to normal" candidate, but that only works in the context of four years of Trumpish turbo insanity.
I'm amazed that Democrats seem to be so afraid to address the anger felt by people who feel abandoned by the rich and powerful in this country. Republicans were never going to deliver, but they have been able to seize power by billing themselves as champions of the common citizen and avatars of middle and lower class justice.
If Democrats can't wrestle that narrative away from the Republicans and meaningfully address just how powerless and forgotten so many people in this country feel, then they are going to have a very hard time stopping our backwards slide into fascism.
I think part of the problem is that the democrats have been deep in bed with Wallstreet and tech since the 90’s. Populist anger may help them win, but the people they are angry at are the ones who are also paying the bills. It takes extraordinary self sacrifice and discipline to walk the tightrope of politics and keep your hands clean. Obama and Bernie did their best to do that, but both of them had a very difficult road without the traditional money banks.
The Biden administration is quite possibly the worst administration I've ever seen when it comes to messaging, and I am in my 50s. Someday in the future someone will write a PhD dissertation on why they are so dysfunctional in this respect, but for now I just don't get it. They are singularly inept when it comes to publicizing and taking credit for their wins.
Biden can only put on his sunglasses so many times before the meme gets stale.
https://youtu.be/MAbab8aP4_A
The problem is that they know people on the left will never be true assholes to them so it allows them to do anything they want.
The current example is the border crisis, Texas acts the way it does because it knows that the federal government will not actually do anything about it. If the situation was reversed though? Democrat State easing the entry of migrants and not letting the federal government manage the border? Republicans wouldn't care, they would send in the big guns!
I do. I just don't excuse it. Some of it is willful. Some is negligent. Some is innocent to some degree. But I won't excuse it away. The Internet put the world's info at our fingertips. It's about time people acted like it.
If you play like them, you either lose, or become them.
I don't buy into that. There's a difference in pushing the bully back assertively without necessarily stooping to their level.
Nobody is advocating we attempt to cheat like Republicans, for instance (at least I hope that wasn't what was meant by fighting dirty). Just stop coddling them and pretending they're acting in good faith when clearly they are not. I've seen more of this assertiveness come out over the years from Democrats and it's long past due and could be tripled easily.
Republicans lack a soul and democrats lack a spine, that's my take.
That has been true for so long, sadly.
that line may work in movies
I can't read all that, gimme a cat gif