Mildly Infuriating
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Why is it basically only the EU that seems to have an interest in preventing shitty business practices.
Because the US is controlled by corporations
Asia for the most part doesn't care
Australia is run by right wing nut jobs
New Zealand is quiet so they probably do do something like this but we haven't heard about it.
Japan is Japan. Civil rights isn't really a thing.
And China and Russia love invasion of privacy it's basically the entire basis of their countries.
Well actshually... Australia used to be run by right-wing nutjobs. The current mob in power are centrist nut jobs.
The power behind the throne in Australia is still right wing nut jobs and corporations
I feel like Australia and New Zealand is kind of like England and Scotland in that sense.
Australia is essentially just Texas out in a remote corner of the world. Just a bunch of mining and oil companies running a country.
So your telling me Capitalism is destroying the planet everywhere regardless of the nominal government "in charge"?
I'm really curious (as I'm not living there) what the difference is. Is it just their religious tendencies? Or is it their feelings towards the nebulous "other" that defines them?
In Australia there are two major political parties, Labor and Liberals.
Liberals does not mean what it does in the US, they are the right wing party, who are in a coalition with the Nationals party which is even further right wing.
Labor is now centre-right as they kept running on centre-left policies and losing.
The defining difference between the parties on the domestic front are that Labor supports and Liberals oppose
Social safety nets
Universal medical care
Taxation of corporations
On a foreign policy front they parties are broadly aligned however their stance on how to deal (interact) with China is vastly different, where Labor engages the Liberals attack China endlessly which resulted in a trade war which we're still feeling the effects of.
This is a very shallow examination of Australia's political landscape but I'm not a political commentator.
I am generally curious what you mean by centrist nut jobs? The whole point of the centre is to be somewhere in the middle and therefore the best of both worlds that everyone has something in common with as far as I’m concerned
There is no "best of both worlds" when one side wants you to be a fucking slave. Wake up, dummy.
How about just a little bit of servitude...?
....wait
“Best of both worlds” doesn't literally mean expressing everything on a numeric scale and averaging it out.
No, we know.
What's the best that should we take from the far right?
It's an ideological desert over there once you look past the race supremacy, inevitable oligarchy and people dying if they don't spend enough of their time struggling to survive. It's literally just psychopathic power grabbing when you really distill it down.
If any of that sounds good to you, I'm not interested in the world you want.
Support for centrism is either complete political ignorance, or looking at that desert and thinking "I think we need some of that shit over here"
Nothing. And neither should we take anything from the far left. It's the moderates that have good ideas.
Okay, humour me then, I'm clearly the ignorant one here.
Let's pretend that this centre which pulls from both sides is completely uninfluenced by the extremes somehow.
What's good about the not-quite-so-right that's unique compared against the far right then?
What's good about the not-quite-so-left that's unique from the far left?
Do these things marry up in a way that's not entirely ideologically bankrupt in the dissonance required?
Some things I like from the left:
Some things I like from the right:
And what I don't like about either:
Based on these, I'd consider myself centrist or maybe a bit left-leaning, but the far left would consider me a Nazi and the far right would consider me a communist or something.
Also note that I'm not from the USA and I see USA politics through the lens of what I know to work and not work in my country.
So, gonna do the context bit before I dive in, because you seem to be engaging in good faith. Apologies though, this is probably gonna be a few lines and a little disorganised, but I'll try and address everything you've said. Here goes:
If you'd not guessed already I'm very much left wing. My ideal world looks something like an ideology called anarcho-syndicalism, though I'm not going to pretend I know that's the perfect system, just something roughly in that shape seems like the ideal system to benefit the most people. This is partially guided by my belief that centralisation of power breeds corruption. It's also worth highlighting, I'm not sure my ideal world is showing up any time soon, but I'm convinced it's the direction we should be moving in. It's never good to treat ideology as religion, no one has all the answers, but politics without ideology is aimlessly bankrupt.
Anyway, your response—firstly it seems to be you're muddying left vs right and authoritarian vs liberal/libertarian (the US has ruined both of the real definitions of these terms, when I say libertarian going forward I mean the original French definition tied to liberty, not the knuckle dragging ancaps) a bit. Left vs right can generally be simplified as cooperation Vs competition. Left wingers believe the best outcomes come from working together, right wingers believe competition creates the best outcome. Pretty much all the rest of the ideology flows from those conclusions. Authoritarians believe society needs to be controlled to remain, libertarians (again, not the capitalist knuckle draggers) believe people should be free to make their own choices.
There's a hell of a lot of other ways to split politics up (for example nationalist vs internationalist is another split, given you mentioned immigration, or religious vs secular, republican vs monarchist, the list goes on), but generally the left/right, auth/lib splits seem to be the ones that people polarise around.
As you note, you're not in the US, neither am I. I'm in the UK where we have had an authoritarian right-wing party in power for getting close to a decade and a half. A great example is that we are subjected to the most surveillance in the world outside of China here. You often hear people saying right wing parties are all about limiting government intervention (as you have), but this is patently not the case. Surveillance in my country has been massively expanded under the Tories.
To address your point around cautiousness, they've recently been trying to force tech companies to put backdoors in their encryption to allow them to read people's encrypted messages (iMessage, WhatsApp, telegram, etc). Everyone with a pulse remotely connected to the technology industry has been telling them how universally stupid this idea is (this post is long enough, so ask if you're not clear as to why this is ridiculous). They're planning on forging on ahead putting something effectively impossible or dangerous into law. That's not caution, it's reckless.
What is free speech? Some right wingers seem to be banging on about "free speech absolutism" recently, which seems to boil down to the childish notion that "it's my right to say what I like without consequence, and everyone has to listen". That's something that never has and never will exist. No one has to listen to anyone, and further, if someone is freely talking shit, someone else can freely talk shit back at them. As for what I'm assuming you're getting at regarding censorship, a reductio ad absurdum argument: I don't think you'd disagree that it's pretty damn harmful for someone to follow a suicidal person around 24/7 shouting "kill yourself" over and over, right? (At least I really hope you're with me on this one) So, pretty uncontroversial to try and prevent that scenario right? Preventing some cruel bastard pushing someone over the edge is more important than the bastard's right to say what he likes, right? There are several similar situations where speech can cause harm that may end up damaging if not fatal. This is the free speech the right-wingers are getting frothed up about. At the same time in my country the right wing government is attempting to ban peaceful protest. Funnily enough, a pattern emerges again, it's free speech for them, not for their opponents.
This is already getting far too long so I'm gonna do a lightning round for your other points
Cautiousness about immigration. Illegal or not, Immigration is pretty much always a neutral or positive force. More often than not, any negatives you read about are often unusual cases or cherry picked stories amplified to further a political agenda. Funnily enough illegal immigrants are often a net fiscal benefit because they're often unable to access any public services, yet contribute tax at the very least via VAT/sales taxes.
Banning drugs creates more drug addicts because people are less likely or even able to seek help. It also makes organised crime inevitable, the south American drug cartels would not exist if they couldn't sell drugs to people. No one is going to buy dodgy illegal drugs if there's a better option.
Public transportation.... What? That's a lefty thing. Not sure how you've got that one mixed up.
And now your don't like in either bit:
Takes on equality, I'm not sure what your third option is given you've highlighted the left is trying to do something about it and the right isn't. Maybe I'm misreading you.
Voter fraud prevention, so this is an interesting one. It's not intuitive at all, but adding or changing restrictions on voting will always prevent some legitimate people from voting. A simple example (one of many) is that a new requirement comes in and now you need to bring a driving licence with you, uninformed Bob shows up on polling day and is told he needs a driving licence to vote. Bob doesn't have a driving licence because he has a disability that prevents it, he's told there's a scheme that he could have used to send off for a special ID for people in his situation. Well, he's not gonna be able to get that done before the polling is closed. Bob's now prevented from voting, despite being legally entitled to.
Now, you might think that's an acceptable cost to prevent voter fraud. There's never been any amount of meaningful voter fraud found to be happening in any modern fair election. Funnily it's pretty much always the politicians complaining about voter fraud that are trying to unfairly influence things.
Now, I'm obviously coming at this from a left wing perspective, I've been up front about that (and sorry for the essay, you got me when I was bored, I didn't think I'd be typing for 10 mins). If you even partially agree with what I've said, can you maybe see that in the most charitable assessment, centrism is simply a lack of understanding rather than a consistent ideology?
(Again, really did not intend for a post this length soz)
This was beautifully written and well sourced. I don't have anything else to add, I just wanted you to know I appreciate your contribution.
Sorry for taking long to respond, I've been busy.
Thanks for pointing this out. This is exactly the problem – due to the two-party system, USA people are trying to cram many different opinions into two “packages” even if they're completely unrelated – which is precisely why I think we should pick and choose from these “packages” instead of dogmatically sticking to one.
I was talking about what seems to be the general stance of moderate right-wing people on the internet, not any specific party. It seems, for example, that many people voted for Trump not because they like him, but because they thought his government would be less controlling than the alternative.
No, free speech absolutism is about the idea that those who transmit information shouldn't get to decide whether it gets delivered based on whether they agree with the content. A mail deliverer is not allowed to read letters and discard them if they don't like them, so why should social media be able to do that? The rest of the paragraph seems to be a strawman about what I believe, so I'm not going to address it.
Whether or not illegal immigration creates a burden on the economy, isn't it unfair toward legal immigrants who worked hard to learn the local language and culture?
So why do alcohol and tobacco, the two completely legal drugs, have by far the most addicts?
I'm sorry, I was ninja-editing my comment and accidentally put it into the wrong section. Ignore that.
As I tried to say, I want equality, but I have a fundamentally different idea about what equality looks like. For example, I consider “affirmative action” to be a step against equality. And having “female-only” or “black-only” stuff just furthers segregation.
I definitely don't consider a driving license a good requirement for voting (I don't have one myself because fuck cars). Not sure how you got that from my comment.
You forgot Africa, South America, Canada, Greenland(?).
Greenland is a part of Denmark so in the EU
Well yes, but actually no. Greenland is part of Denmark, which is in the EU, but Greenland is not in the EU.
But the Data Protection Authority is the same and they have quite similar laws, most likely completely compliant with EU regulations. Both because cultural connections as well as them wanting to position themselves as a location for internet infrastructure.
Countries like Iceland straight-up implement GDPR because EEA. I'd say both could easily be convinced to become EU members by reforming the fisheries policy into something sane, both when it comes to size of quotas (the EU could pull an order of magnitude more fish out of the water if we'd let stocks recover to the levels from 100 years ago) and distribution of quotas -- coasts should be considered (more) like mineral deposits: We're not getting any Austrian silver either why are they getting our fish, if they want to fish they can buy quotas from a coastal state.
I also had to look this up but Greenland is not in the EU
Africa is still developing so data privacy is the least of their concerns. They’re focusing on creating stable corruption free governments that don’t undergo a coup or civil war every 5 years, and having a hell of a time with that.
Africa is an enormous continent, it contains 53 different countries and what you said is only true of a handful of them.
I don't blame you, I blame the eurocentric educational system and news media.
If by "having a hell of a time with that" you mean "the US loves shutting down developing nations", absolutely.
There is no evidence the US has been involved in the last several coups, we’ve been supporting efforts at fair democratic processes and development in Africa for years.
Good joke. The US is literally AT ALL TIMES trying to destabilize any country that could potentially pose a problem to their hegemony. As recently as 2022 it has been PROVEN that US agencies tried (unsuccessfully) to undermine Brazilian democracy, as an example. (Before you try to change subjects - yes, Brazil is not in Africa. It's just a concrete example you can't dodge with argumentation).
I would like to point the RWNJs finally got voted out in Oz last year (federal and most states). Of course Murdoch and co. are working hard to reverse that, but semi sane leadership is in place for at least a year or two more.
As with most things in the US, California has similar laws to the gdpr (though admittedly not as powerful), so a lot of websites are starting to change a bit in the US because of california.
China and Russia are dictatorships meaning they do whatever the fucknthey like and if you don't like it you might become suicidal.
Moatly about capitalism i think. If you put on privacy restrictions, you are regulating the market, while capitalism believes that the market should regulate itself, and customers will simply stop using those websites/softwares overtime if its too bad. I find this completely delusional in the era of mega corporations, but thats the capitalistic aproach to this.
EU is capitalist, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Maybe you're just another person blaming everything on capitalism because that's easier than understanding the actual problems. Might as well blame it on the prevalent system.
Im not exactly against capitalism, but i do think that a hardcore capitalistic aproach such as the one in the US has many downsides.
Please try not to throw insults or mean assumptions. We are here to discuss.
The EU is a social market economy. It currently slants more capitalist but nothing whatsoever stops member states from taxing the hell out of billionaires shifting it more towards market socialism.
What really doesn't fly in the EU is the free market <-> unregulated market equivocation that peddlers of institutional market failure enjoy so much. The free market model relies on perfectly rational actors acting on perfect information, in the real world you need regulation to approach that ideal. If you want to see actually unregulated markets have a look at black ones where there's not even regulations against offers you can't refuse.
And that's why the EU is legislating things like caps having to stay attached to plastic bottles: Because not doing it would allow companies to continue to externalise microplastic problems they generate and, innovation costing money, they wouldn't do it on their own (the new caps aren't even more expensive per piece it's just some R&D and very small changes to bottling machines.)
Anarcho-capitalism ⊊ capitalism.
Because they listen to people rather than ignore them and then make policy based on how much money they can make from the deal.
This shows me the EU is actually more democratic then the US is.
It's much harder to pay off the lawmakers to keep the status quo when the economic area is controlled by dozens of individual governments.
This is actually a particularly important point. The nature of the EU is laden with bureaucracy. Combined with the wide range of cultures, and the rotation of staff, it makes bribing enough people to get your way difficult. You end up needing people in multiple countries to deal with it, and the rotations make long term deals difficult.
The end result is that bribing EU bureaucracy is like trying to stop a river with just hands. It's far less effective, letting the EU be a lot more effective (if slow).
There's a reason so many big business interests want to break up the EU.
Shouldn't it be the same in the US with state and federal governments?
All of the states are owned by one of the same two political parties, and their respective goals are more or less aligned on a state-by-state level, bordering on zealotry.
America is, effectively a monoculture. At least in the UK, there is more variance in accents over 100 miles than over all of the US. The EU has a wide selection of languages and cultures, all with deep histories and quirks. Methods that work in 1 culture will be insulting in another. America is practically setup for mass deployment of propaganda and industrial ~~bribery~~ , sorry lobbying.
The US was originally more like the EU but it federalized pretty hard after the civil war.
Brazil also has a similar law called LGPD, I think it was made based on European GDPR
Actually, and I'm quite proud of this, the LGPD was already being discussed before the EU's GDPR. It may not look like it, but Brazil is at the forefront of digital protection and privacy.
Yah, I just get Google to block these sites from ever being recommended again.
Is ~~bribery~~ political donations not a thing in Europe?