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So he went through eight minutes at least of pain and panic? Sure sounds like cruel and unusual punishment to me. Although the idea that Alabama killed a man using a method considered too brutal to kill animals with does seem fitting.
No. With the notable exception of rodents, animals generally can't detect oxygen deficiency directly (though they may get loopy).
Nitrogen asphyxiation basically makes you loopy, then unconscious, then dead. It's experientially equivalent to exposure to normal air at extremely high altitudes. Military pilots are often exposed to this (in a controlled manner) precisely because it's so hard to recognize, and doesn't induce fear. Like, epic levels of hard to recognize, as in "Hey Bob, it's time to put your mask back on to keep you from dying!" Bob: snickers and clearly thinks this is a great joke, until the person straps his mask back on, and he realizes how serious the situation is
You can make a trough for a (non-starved) pig that constantly releases nitrogen gas (which it breathes as it's eating). The pig puts his head in the trough to eat, then passes out from lack of oxygen (this pulling it's snout out of the trough), then is like "what was I doing? Oh look, food.." ..and goes right back to it, passing out again.
This is completely different from the reaction to carbon dioxide asphyxiation, which the body has sensors for, and induces all kinds of panic. Try the same trough experiment with a pig using carbon dioxide, and it will stay the fuck away from the evil trough of death.
You can watch Destin from Smarter Every Day almost die on camera* due to hypoxia.
I'll go looking for the link.
Obviously watch the whole video but start at 5:27 (ends around 7:30) for the moment. Watching this freaks me the fuck out every time.
YT Link
*He was in a safe environment
Also so many instances of cave divers going loopy then dead in a matter of minutes. It's astounding that it's so easy to accidentally die from nitrogen but we just can't seem to get the hang of not torturing people to death.
Holy shit. I assumed we would have minutes not seconds if a plane depressurized. I understand what that would freak you the fuck out.
That's not what gets me, its watching him degrade and then not have the presence of mind to simply reenable his oxygen.
That triggers me super hard for some reason
Yeah. This is the thing.
Multiple reports from observers of this execution method: it’s horrible, they thrash around on the gurney and seem to suffer greatly
This guy: nuh uh.
Yeah, good luck getting someone to be cooperative and calmly following instructions while being murdered by the government in front of an audience 🙄
True. Pretty fucked up how the proponents of state murder can't see how those are fundamentally different situations.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure most people aren't going to cooperate in their own execution.
This isn't like assisted suicide/euthanasia. These are, by definition, people being forced into this by the state. At least some portion of them are always going to be uncooperative.
Yeah. The suicide pods are a good example. There's enough space in them that the person won't experience CO2 buildup in the short amount of time it takes.
Yes, and they need to violate every human instinct and cooperate. They know this gas is there with the specific purpose to kill them against their will, it’s incredibly difficult to voluntarily breathe in that situation
No, they don't need to cooperate. If you struggle and thrash, no matter how you die, you'll endure the struggle and thrashing.
I apologize if I implied they should cooperate. Cooperation is necessary for the painlessness. But I believe they have the right to fight to their dying moment and that it is laudable to do so
Ah. Well, if nitrogen asphyxiation is done right (a proper mask, or better, total immersion), cooperation is only necessary for the painlessness in the same sense that walking down a hallway or sitting in a chair requires your cooperation - if you smash your head against a wall, or pick up a chair and smash it and hurt yourself in the process, for example, it's not painless.
As far as a person's struggle to live - yeah, no shame in fighting for it.
Nitrogen asphyxiation may not be unpleasant, but being executed certainly causes duress.
If the method of execution takes 8 minutes, and makes you "loopy" during that time, while contemplating your impending death, then that's cruel in my opinion.
In my opinion, if you're going to execute someone then brevity and certainty must surely be required to make it humane.
Imagine them hanging you upside down trying to find a vein for legal injection and being unable to do so for 2 hours. A firing squad would be better in many ways.
Firstly, death causes twitching. And it's not fucking pretty. Most animals, humans included, have a very wide array of stuff that their body does even after they are fully unconscious. It's not at all surprising that bystanders were freaked out, even in ideal circumstances.
You should really look into apoxia. When done right (and I'm not arguing that the execution in the article was done right), it's a minute, maybe two. And that's probably less time than you'd spend on a firing line.
The reality is that there simply is no "perfect" way to kill someone who doesn't want to die. We could give them a choice, possibly, but will they even choose?
Nitrogen asphyxiation, done right, is humane. There is no pain. But one way or the other, the person's gonna know it's happening, no matter the method used to execute them.
Again, none of this is to condone execution as a consequence of crime. I don't think the state is qualified to make the call.
The way they are doing it is horrifying.
No. Perhaps that they are doing it is horrifying, but the way is very humane. It is literally getting loopy and falling asleep, over a very short time period.
When done correctly, i.e. full immersion with proper removal of CO2, then it is humane. The current technique does not remove CO2 from the mask, meaning the victim chokes to death and knows they are choking the entire time.
So, this is similar to how lethal injection executions were getting botched because all the people who knew how to do it properly refused to on moral and ethical grounds, and the states decided to push ahead anyway?
Pretty much. Also down to money, the proper way requires a full chamber, plus constant monitoring and replacement of all gasses in said chamber -- it can't be done with just a mask or helmet, that means thousands of liters of nitrogen per second to do it properly.
It doesn't mean thousands of litres per second to do it properly. A mask or helmet could be considered a poor tool for the job, though, because they are easier to fight/struggle with, and the person could hurt themselves in the process of that.
You need the normal level of air replacement for any given volume with a human in it, but you need to be using nitrogen as the source of air replacement. If you want to speed the process up, you could do 1x space volume/minute for a couple minutes, then drop it down to a normal rate of replacement.
Choosing a larger volume will not make it painful, but it will make it slower unless you increase the flow. But slower is not bad, per se, except that since it's an execution, faster is possibly more merciful (depending on the person's preference) because the person has less time to sit there and contemplate the fact of their death.
The suicide pods are pretty much the ideal balance of space taken. For an execution, perhaps a small room with a chair, and a somewhat faster nitrogen replacement rate (like, 60 volumes/h for the first two minutes, then 5 volumes/h after that).
We now have 3D printed euthanasia pods for people that elect to do so. First successful case was very recent. I don’t feel that adding some restraints would be a major hurdle.
If the death penalty unfortunately sticks around, this seems like a humane, cheap way to do so.
Then that's not simply killing him with nitrogen gas. But the better method is:
..that is all. If they're fucking it up, it's on them.
..that is all.
But also, even when completely unconscious, complex living things with a central nervous system (including people) tend to flop when they die.
Maybe read what ACTUALLY happens in stead of regurgitating what WOULD happen under ideal circumstances ffs!
Nah. I know what happens. I've experienced asphyxia.
Have you experienced being murdered by the government in front of an audience? Using a method that's humane if (and ONLY if) you're completely calm and fully cooperative?
The exact circumstances matter.
Yes, precise circumstances matter.
For nitrogen asphyxiation in general, you do not have to be calm and cooperative for it to be painless, any more than you do so to stand in a room or sit in a chair.
As to the specific setup that the government chose, I can't vouch for that.
That's what we're talking about, though! That's the topic!
If I was to go on and on across several comments about how nitrous oxide is pleasant to inhale and then go "I don't know about nitrogen asphyxiation, though" at the end, you'd be very annoyed with me and rightly so!
OK, be annoyed with me then.
What I'm saying is "if the state is going to execute people, then nitrogen asphyxiation is an excellent and humane choice, provided that the state performs the execution properly."
I am not saying anything beyond that. I'm not saying that this specific execution was performed properly. I wouldn't really trust the state to say it was done right, or a reporter to day it was done wrong.
People (and animals) can jerk and twitch when they die. They can gasp and breathe heavily even, sometimes. They are unconscious by that point if asphyxiation is done right. Look into hypoxia, there's a ton of documentation on it, video and otherwise, including direct accounts.
The only thing we can do to make it more humane is a: ensure the method is implemented correctly, and b: provide a choice of methods to the person to be executed.
Of course, that's aside from the question of whether the state is capable of correctly evaluating who should be killed in the first place.
I agree that nitrogen can be used for a peaceful euthanasia. Definitely not the way they are doing it though.
Unless they are pressurizing the space the guy is in, nitrogen will just make you black out, without suffering (other than the human knowledge that you are about to die, but that exists with all methods).
This comment has been reported. After doing more research than I ever wanted to on this topic, I have determined this to not be misinformation.
As to the accuracy of the information, I cannot say, as all the information science has on it is based on accidents. All I can say is there is evidence to say that this comment was made in good faith.
I will not speak on the topic of death sentence.
Since when is 8 minutes of fighting against your restraints and desperately gasping for air "a very short time period?"
Being strangled to death with a piece of rope would take less time than that. A proper chokehold with your bare hands to deny oxygen to the brain would've killed him in about a minute.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
With nitrogen, you are literally be breathing out your oxygen. No, a rope is not faster. No, a rope is not more humane.
Except they're not filtering out the carbon dioxide, so you're suffocating in a mix of your own exhalation plus the nitrogen.
Maybe read the part where the dude struggled for 8 minutes before he finally died.
But that's not a problem with nitrogen asphyxiation, that's stupid human implementation.
And the human implementation is why people have been arguing with you this whole time. Because he wasn't executed using proper asphyxiation like that suicide pod (not that execution in itself is morally acceptable anyways), they just slapped a mask on him that was hooked up to a tank of nitrogen.
Even the people watching it found it traumatic because he struggled and thrashed pretty much the whole time.
Ah. Bad title, then.
This comment has been reported. After doing more research than I ever wanted to on this topic, I have determined this to not be misinformation.
As to the accuracy of the information, I cannot say, as all the information science has on it is based on accidents. All I can say is there is evidence to say that this comment was made in good faith.
I will not speak on the topic of death sentence.
They enjoy murdering people.