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There is no room for a discussion. It's like one side saying "kill everyone" and the other side is saying "let's not kill people" then people are like "well, let's compromise and kill just some people, it's only fair." No, I'm done. Democrats have been way too tame and compromising for too long, I'm done entertaining this BS.
Ironically, that is almost exactly how the pro-life movement feels about abortion.
I'm sure they do. But the thing is science at stats don't back their stance.
Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, that's a pretty iffy claim when we're getting into what counts as life.
If I push a pregnant woman down some stairs and cause her to lose a baby, we all still view it as a despicable act, much worse than if she'd not been pregnant.
I personally am all for abortion rights but I'm not arrogant enough to decide everyone else is absolutely wrong and I am the arbiter of what is and isn't life.
So because you're not the ultimate moral arbiter, why not leave it up to the people who may or may not get an abortion? Almost like it's pro CHOICE.
Your example of pushing is still assault and non-consensual, pretty easy to call a difference there. The only argument I've heard hold any water is the cutoff time for abortion, but that's not what pro life people are ever talking about.
So are you saying that me pushing a pregnant woman down the stairs is the same as doing so to a non pregnant woman?
Again, I'm pro-choice. But, the pro-life response is simply that the unborn child doesn't get a say in the matter. We don't allow people to murder their born children even though it's their own child. The pro-life movement just argues that the definition of child should include those who have yet to be born.
I mean, try asking any pregnant mom about whether the thing kicking around inside them is alive or not...
Well at the point of kicking, I don't think many people are saying abortion is still an option. Pushing a pregnant person feels worse, in the same way hurting any more vulnerable party does. Can't really argue with that. Causing a miscarriage should be a more serious offense yes, but I feel like it is a difference between suicide and manslaughter. Both are crime, and both have the same end point, but one was action taken against another.
The unborn child doesn't get a say because it doesn't have a say yet. It doesn't have an opinion. It doesn't want to live. It can't survive on its own, it's just a parasite basically until it's born.
Being pregnant is a life threatening emergency, until we had modern medical intervention, we had death from childbirth all the time. Like, all the friggin time. Making someone carry to term is not exactly a no-risk/no struggle situation for them, and forcing them to is just punishment for sinning for a lot of pro-life people. Same reason a portion of pro life people want to ban contraceptives.
The goal is to stop having unhappy, poor, abused, or unwanted children, and to have happy, well adjusted, wanted and loved children. The pro-life argument usually stops as soon as a kid is born. No adoption programs, no child health care reform, no handouts for struggling parents, nothing. So someone who wasn't ready to have a kid might now be forced to either abandon them or barely make it through life with a kid, making everything harder for all of them.
It absolutely is and was under Roe v Wade. Babies start to kick and move as early as 16 weeks. While Roe did allow states to regulate the second trimester (14 - 28 weeks) many states had no restrictions on abortions during this period:
https://www.axios.com/2022/05/14/abortion-state-laws-bans-roe-supreme-court
So again, do you think any pregnant mom who has you put your hand on her belly to feel the kid kick, would they agree the kicker is just a clump of cells or a parasite? (Actually, having had many pregnant friends scratch that last one, I think all of them at one point jokingly referred to their internal parasite.)
But the point is that even the most staunch pro-choice of us should have the decency to admit that the thing inside may not quite be a person but is certainly more than a clump of cells. Then the divergence is who has the rights, the outcomes etc. I agree with you that it's wrong to force a woman to carry a kid to term but, as I keep trying to say, those who disagree have a point.
I know it's super uncool these days to try and understand those with whom we disagree and even less cool to empathize with them but I promise you, it's a worthwhile endeavor.
You are absolutely right. It's a tough battle because they believe they are literally voting to not kill babies. It would be like someone trying to convince me to kill a toddler. How could I possibly compromise?
I don't agree, but I can understand.
Imo, no. Pushing a woman is assault, pushing a pregnant woman is assault and something else (another post suggested something akin to manslaughter, which I think fits if the assault causes a miscarriage)
Correct. An unborn child doesn’t get a say in whether they are aborted or born. They have no opinions, they have no wants. The unborn child cannot consent to being aborted but they cannot consent to being born either. The only valid opinion and choice is that of the mother, because it’s the mother’s life that is very physically (and eventually also mentally, socially, etc) affected by the pregnancy.
Which is also why I said that pushing a pregnant woman should have harsher penalties than just assault: it also endangers or destroys something whose state of being only the woman should be in charge of.
It’s like if I pickpocket your wallet that’s stealing, but if I steal the wallet from your house that’s also breaking and entering.
You are being perfectly reasonable and coherent by the way. Whoever is downvoting you doesn't seem to understand the point of discussion.
They go on to argue that abortion is murder in a different comment. They're using careful language but it's obvious this isn't a person who is simply "arguing the other side," this is a conversation done in bad faith.
Are you referring to this?
Because that's very obviously referring to the matter in the way that "pro lifers" would.
And you are ignoring the preceding:
I would read comments more carefully if you're going to cast aspersions..
Neither.
I'm talking about this:
Go and find the context, see that they used lots of "I'm pro choice" language, but then went on to argue that an embryo is a child. This is someone using lots of careful language, but is making a specific argument.
We're certainly allowed to see this in our own ways. Anyone who says blanket statements about how we perceive an unborn child is making a statement about what we believe.
In my opinion, that kind of assertion crosses the line between someone championing the opinion of another and becomes championing their own opinion.
One side has stats that have down that Roe V Wade massively reduced crime as less children were born into the system or unwanted. The burden of an unwanted child can ruin both the parents and childs life. We've seen how abortion bans can lead to doctors being scared to do anything in some situations causing the mother to die.
The other side is people saying a fetus has a soul because an old book told them so.
It's pretty clear which side should be backed. Not saying either side is perfect, but one side has a lot more supporting evidence than the other.
Let's not forget, the pro choice side is just that, you have a choice. No one is forcing anything, the other side is. Again, the choice is clear to me.
The example of pushing a woman down the stairs is silly. The reason why it's worse if she's pregnant is because you took away her choice and opportunity to have that baby, after she is dealing with all that comes with being pregnant. That is not the same as a person who is a month in and doesn't want it, by her choice.
Again, I'm not trying to argue for one side over the other. I'm just saying that from their point of view, both sides have some sense of legitimacy. I tend to agree with you that abortion should be available to all who want one because it's not my damned decision to make.
But yet again, for the pro-lifers, murdering babies, no matter how good the results etc might be is fundamentally wrong.
To each their own I guess. I personally would feel horrible about killing a child not just removing a temporary opportunity or something. I'm not saying it's the same as an abortion, just that we on a fundamental level do understand that the fetus isn't just a clump of cells.
Sad you're downvoted for pointing out the truth, it's not even your opinion!
Welcome to Lemmy! Downvotes will be your guide.