this post was submitted on 09 Jul 2024
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[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago (5 children)

Something that no one has discussed in this highly enlightened conversation here is the issue of consent. A person cannot consent to being born. Full stop. I don't know of a way around that besides ignoring it.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 44 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (9 children)

A person cannot consent to being born

But they also can't request it. What do you do for the people who don't exist yet that desire existence?

I should note that I have gone around the local NICU and requested all the children present to indicate a desire to stop existing. None of them agreed. Many of them were struggling mightily to continue to exist. A few even yelled at me for asking the question. I'll admit its a small sample size, but hard to argue with a 100% existence endorsement.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Fuck me that's the best counter point I have heard so far. Thanks!

(In case you really work at a NICU: thank you so much for your work.)

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 8 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

My adopted son was born premature, and I'm currently doing a daily sabbatical to check on him. By all rights, he shouldn't be alive. One of the brighter moments of being an American right now is standing in a room full of babies whose lives hinge on our willingness to fund Medicaid. Every one of these beds is costing hundreds of thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours to maintain. And people are dedicating their entire careers to bringing early newborns off the brink of death.

Its put a whole new spin on the ideas of natalism and anti-natalism. So easy to see some chud troll on the internet saying we should pull the plug, because none of these kids "consented" to keep breathing. But then you've got rooms full of compassion and care and joy, as these medical workers weenie all these little guys and girls into the world with the power of modern medicine. Stunning and majestic. The NICU Ward should be on the god damned American Flag. Its a testament to our greatness.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

Just to clarify, I'm not advocating for any baby to be taken off life support, that's a pretty abhorrent thing to accuse me of, if that's what you meant.

I work in critical care and routinely bring people back from the brink of death. With a living being, unless otherwise stated, their consent to life saving treatment is implied, and I'm happy to give it.

Philosophically, I'm just not convinced that there is such a thing as an implied consent to "make me exist when I don't exist already".

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

That's just how evolution works- something that already exists and is driven to stay alive is more likely to pass on its genetics than something that is not driven to stay alive. This fact has nothing to do with the philosophy of consenting to exist in the first place.

Edit: missed your first question. Something that does not exist cannot desire.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

But how can something that doesn't exist have the capability of consent being violated?

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Because the typical standard of consent is that in order to do something to someone, you should have informed consent. If you cannot obtain that, then you do not do the thing. Something that does not exist cannot give informed consent, therefore you should not do the thing.

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

I knowhow consent works, but existence is the precondition for anything constent-related, including violationg consent.

[–] KombatWombat 1 points 5 months ago

Non-interference is a good default position to have, but we are capable of acting on behalf of others when we have a certain threshold of confidence for what they would want in a situation. Otherwise, we would consider it wrong to give CPR to an unconscious person.

When it comes to life, people overwhelmingly prefer to continue existing when they have the power to choose. So it makes sense for us to presume that a hypothetical person would choose to be born given the opportunity.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 3 points 5 months ago (1 children)

This fact has nothing to do with the philosophy of consenting to exist

If living organisms are predisposed to prefer existence, this would imply existence is an inherently preferable state.

Something that does not exist cannot desire.

Prove it

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago

If living organisms are predisposed to prefer existence, this would imply existence is an inherently preferable state.

It usually is- to a living organism, which is not what we're talking about.

Prove it

Come on bro you can't be serious about this.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago

😂 Made my day

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If we are to assume that every non-existent person desires to exist, and that we have the obligation to not block this, then we should be having children whenever possible as to not block anyone.

Let's visualize this. If I decide to wait for another partner and a certain age, the humans that I could create with my current sexual partner in these years are screaming to be born and I'm ignoring them. I'm not letting Laura or Ignacio be born, and over them I'm preferring Óscar who will be born in 2028 of a different father. Am I doing something morally incorrect at negating Laura's and Ignacio's right to be? If so, as I said, you agree we have the obligation of having children whenever possible and we better start now you and me and everyone else reading. If not, if we don't have this obligation, then there's no problem if I skip Laura this year, Ignacio the next and Óscar and others later. Unless you want to save this by saying some people deserve to come into existence more than others, but I already say I won't agree with that.

Other people would argue in a different way. There are people who would say that even if we create good by bringing people that do consent retrospectively, we also harm forcing life into people that wouldn't and don't want life. And even if the proportion is absurd, not harming is always the priority over giving pleasure. This is the idea behind negative utilitarianism and other ethical paradigms. This also has been studied by philosopher David Benatar who reframed it, and now that's called "Benatar asymmetry" (but the question is older than him).

I hope my English does not betray my explanation...

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

If we are to assume that every non-existent person desires to exist, and that we have the obligation to not block this, then we should be having children whenever possible as to not block anyone.

Sure. This is the philosophical counterpoint to the "Nobody consented to exist so it is unethnical to bring anyone into the world". You spin it to argue everyone has a right to exist and you end up with some sort of neoliberal spin on the Quiverfull movement.

There are people who would say that even if we create good by bringing people that do consent retrospectively, we also harm forcing life into people that wouldn’t and don’t want life.

You're assuming objective standards for "good" and "harm" that aren't a given. And you're still ultimately dictating a choice on behalf of other people - both people who are being born and people who are doing the birthing. I mean, ffs, how do you even approach the idea of consent while intruding on two people in the act of coitus? "Stop nutting! You're violating the potential rights of a potential person!" is a thing you get to say only when you've disregarded the actual rights of an actual person.

not harming is always the priority over giving pleasure

That's a personal ideal, not a functional standard. In practice, people routinely engage in socially harmful practices for the sake of personal pleasure. And that goes well beyond sex. Let me know when we abolish the cruise line industry and then maybe you can come back and discuss chopping off everyone's balls for the sake of potentially existent people.

now that’s called “Benatar asymmetry”

The theory is rooted in the perspective that pain is bad. But even this isn't an objective standard.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Nothing is objective to our knowledge and nothing is a given, that's the point. I was not trying to declare those things as truths but trying to explain that there is room to consider them (e.g., to consider that little pain weighs more than enormous pleasure). I cited a philosopher who does, but there are many others. Those are the topics relevant to this discussion.

Antinatalism is not a negative attitude towards sex nor children.

People are free, free enough to create life. The antinatalist wonders if the people creating it have the right to do so, if it hurts in some way (and who), and if we should continue to do so. The answers are very different even among antinatalists. The only thing they have in common is that they do not approve ethically of creating new [human] lives. You can take out the square brackets for some.

And... that's it. I understand if many here believe that procreating is morally neutral or good, but I think there is validity in questioning it or in believing that it is morally incorrect. We all have our reasons and nobody ultimately knows.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Nothing is objective to our knowledge

Horrible news for physicists

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

Don't worry. Good physicists know it as they study epistemology, philosophy of science, and philosophy of physics, among other things.

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[–] Omega_Man 20 points 5 months ago

Sorry Timmy, you still have to go to bed.

[–] [email protected] 19 points 5 months ago (2 children)

What's consent to a being that doesn't exist?

[–] [email protected] 18 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Nothing, unless they start existing.

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago (1 children)

So, how does the concept make any sense? Can I get consent from an angel, too?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I'm not sure what your point is here

[–] [email protected] 14 points 5 months ago (1 children)

My point is that the whole premise of "consent for existing" is bogus.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

And how does that relate to angels?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

We agree there

[–] [email protected] 5 points 5 months ago (1 children)

When you force it into existence, literally everything

[–] [email protected] 12 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I fail to see how the mere concept makes sense right now. That's the same flawed logic as longtermists use.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

If my understanding of longtermism is correct, it's more of a function of utilitarianism. If one wants to do the most good for the most people, then it makes some amount of sense to focus on the far future where presumably there will be more people. Their consent is irrelevant, which is kind of the opposite of what I'm saying, which is that consent is relevant.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago (2 children)

It's the other side of the same coin. They both argue about the well-being/bad-being of hypothetical humans. It's bogus, either way.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

They are not related because you have to exist to experience well-being or "bad-being". What I'm talking about is consenting to exist.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Longtermists try to justify their actions by invoking potential, future generations. Those don't exist either.

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[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I think you make a great point. Have you read about the problems with "person-affecting views"? It's admittedly a bit harder to grasp, but doesn't seem less problematic to me.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Highly recommend. It's easy to dismiss as weird bullshit initially but enlightening when you put in the effort to understand.

To be clear, I am no longer strongly convinced of or against person affecting views and take both seriously.

This is a good starting point:

https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/c6ZYCpq2L46AxSJNy/my-favourite-arguments-against-person-affecting-views

[–] [email protected] 3 points 5 months ago (3 children)

I would prefer not to

  • Slavoy Zizek
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[–] [email protected] 17 points 5 months ago (3 children)

I'm not consenting to paying taxes. Doew that mesn dobby is free now?

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Technically, sure. You are free to go live in the woods, off grid, somewhere. Or you are free to violate this particular social contract and deal with the consequences.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

That's legally not possible. Every piece of land belongs to someone already, either a private entity or a government. You might be able to live somewhere in a forest, but you're at the mercy of the entity that owns the land you live on.

You could technically live in the ocean, but I'm no fish lol

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Taxes are how currency gets its value. So if you plan to stop using taxed currencies, then sure.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 5 months ago

With all due respect but that might be the worst take I've heard this week.

A currencies value is determined by the economy behind it. There's a reason why countries with lots of exports have a strong currency, while countries that don't are weaker in comparison.

Obviously, it's not the sole reason - economy is complex. But taxes have no role in a currencies value.

[–] [email protected] 6 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

I mean I know there's no way to obtain that consent, but I did let my parents know that they should have just gotten the abortion since the condom ripped.

I wasn't planned, and I shouldn't have been born into that family. None of them were ready or cared to be ready or even cared to be with each other as they almost immediately split after my birth.

One thing I'll literally NEVER understand are the women on dating sites with literal newborns... What the actual fuck?

[–] [email protected] 15 points 5 months ago

How long do you think women should wait to date after giving birth?