this post was submitted on 12 Dec 2023
364 points (94.4% liked)

Science Memes

11440 readers
241 users here now

Welcome to c/science_memes @ Mander.xyz!

A place for majestic STEMLORD peacocking, as well as memes about the realities of working in a lab.



Rules

  1. Don't throw mud. Behave like an intellectual and remember the human.
  2. Keep it rooted (on topic).
  3. No spam.
  4. Infographics welcome, get schooled.

This is a science community. We use the Dawkins definition of meme.



Research Committee

Other Mander Communities

Science and Research

Biology and Life Sciences

Physical Sciences

Humanities and Social Sciences

Practical and Applied Sciences

Memes

Miscellaneous

founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
 
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] [email protected] 94 points 1 year ago (5 children)

"observing changes the result" doesn't mean conciousness attempting to look at it changes the result, there is nothing special about conciousness (in quantum mechanics)

"observing changes the result" means we try to measure atoms and fields but unfortunately our measurement tools are also made out of atoms and fields which interact with the atoms and fields we are trying to measure, giving us a different result than if we don't attempt to measure it

It does bring up interesting questions about what the "real" behavior of reality is tho, since anything we observe is technically different than what it would be if left alone. We can only ever know what a slightly altered state of reality is

[–] [email protected] 34 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Think of it like this:

You can use a tennis ball machine to measure how far away a house is by firing the tennis ball at a constant velocity, timing how long it takes the tennis ball to come back to you, multiplying that time by the velocity, and dividing by 2 (since you measured the distance for a round trip). This works pretty darn well for measuring the distance to houses.

But now try this same trick to measure the distance to another ball. When your measuring ball hits the ball you want to measure, it doesn't stay resolutely planted in the ground like that nice friendly house. The energy from your measuring ball bounces the ball being measured off into the distance. Even if you could get your measuring ball to return, the ball you measured isn't in the place you measured it.

Replace that tennis ball with a photon, and you have the basic picture. There's no such thing as passive observation. Measuring something interacts with that thing. Conventional measurement is like in the case with the house, the thing being measured is so much bigger and more stable than the thing we're measuring with that the effect is negligible. But once you start trying to measure something on the same scale as your measuring tool, the ensuing chaos makes it basically impossible to get useful measurements.

[–] chitak166 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What happens if you try to cut a photon in half with a knife?

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The edge of a knife has to be thinner than the thing it's cutting, and we haven't found anything thinner than a photon

[–] chitak166 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Clearly you haven't seen my penis.

[–] [email protected] 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

By that implication it's fundamentally impossible for anyone to see it.

[–] chitak166 3 points 1 year ago
load more comments (1 replies)
[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

This analogy is really well thought out. It really helps my brain understand the weirdness that goes on with measurements on the quantum scale. Thanks for taking the time to type it out.

[–] [email protected] 11 points 1 year ago

Every road leads to Plato's cave

[–] bouh 8 points 1 year ago

My teacher had a good comparison for this: observing macroscoping reality like we do microscopic reality would be like throwing a car at another car to measure its speed or position. Obviously you alter the course of events this way.

Fortunately light doesn't do much in the macroscopic world, so we can use it to observe stuff.

[–] chitak166 3 points 1 year ago

Great distinction.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What if you just measure the ambient particles

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Then you are measuring something with matter still and it then affects it. Literally causing interactions to measure means altering it's state even at a nonchalant glance.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] cynar 37 points 1 year ago (3 children)

This always bugs me. Quantum Mechanics isn't actually that difficult. It has some nasty maths, yes, but that's mostly slog work, rather than an impossibility. 90% of it is the Schroedinger's equation + boundary conditions.

The main issue is that you have to abandon the particle model of reality. This is deeply engrained into our brains. If you try and understand it as "Particles + extras", you will fail. You have to think of it as "Waves + extras". It then, suddenly makes logical sense.

It does have some interesting implications, however, about deeper reality however. E.g. what exactly IS decoherence, from a physical point of view. Also, what is physically happening, dimensionally, when a wave is complex, or even pure imaginary. These are beyond the scope of QM however.

[–] [email protected] 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

The big problem isn't that the math is hard, or that's often impossible to visualise. The problem is that a whole bunch of charlatans intentionally misinterpret what "observing" is in QM, to make money off of gullible victims.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

To elaborate on this, the Schrödinger equation, which describes the dynamics of a single particle, is a wave equation and hence a lot of classical intuition from e.g. electrodynamics can be applied. It is many-body systems, i.e. systems composed of many interacting particles, which is not only mathematically complex but can also defy classical expectations due to emerging phenomena, etc.

[–] bouh 6 points 1 year ago (6 children)

The problem of quantum mechanic is that the physics it shows us is not intuitive, and it sometimes breaks other laws of physics.

Quantum intrication means that information travels faster than light for example. Counterfactuality also breaks causality.

It's not the maths that are the problem, it's that it doesn't make physical sense in the world we currently understand. And the equations explain nothing. They merely describe a a world that doesn't make sense.

Quantum mechanic is like having a machine from the future that does cool things, but you don't understand how it works. It's like people did chemistry before they understand what chemistry was. We do uber cool things with it, but it is a spotlight on our ignorance at the same time.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Actually, I think it's time to reveal, that to some people QM is actually pretty intuitive.

It's just that the masses and the news media don't understand it, so they assume that nobody does. The particle worldview is deeply ingrained into many people's brains, because it's deeply useful to them on a day-to-day basis. If you loosen that requirement, then there's literally nothing standing in your way to accept a wave-worldview.

[–] bouh 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

What about the Copenhagen interpretation debate? What about the non-locality?

These are academic debates, not people ones. Saying that quantum mechanic is intuitive is arrogant at best. You may have a perfect understanding of the current theory and how to use it, and you maybe comfortable using it everyday, but then you should be aware of the limits shouldn't you?

Otherwise it's like alchemy.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (5 replies)
[–] chitak166 27 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I mean, consciousness does alter the universe.

Here I am, altering the universe because of my consciousness.

[–] [email protected] 20 points 1 year ago (2 children)

If you mean that we make cities and culture and science with our minds, then yes.

If you mean we control reality by squeezing our butt cheeks real hard and wishing for parking spaces, then no.

Most of the time I hear this, it's stupid people promoting the second.

[–] [email protected] 10 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I believe the more nuanced argument is that even though you think you have free will and are making choices such as "let's build a hospital" or "I will write a song", due to the nature of all effects needing causes, in a chain - there is no such thing as free will as there is no cause without effect.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] FlickOfTheBean 4 points 1 year ago (6 children)

That second one... Isn't that manifestation? Hard agree with you there, usually people promoting manifestation are simultaneously saying "you can imagine anything and make it real" and in the same breath are trying to sell you something that you evidently aren't able to imagine into your reality for free.

On the other side, technically, even breathing is enough to satisfy the goal of "changing the universe". That bunch of molecules would not be moving through the universe like that if it weren't for your consciousness (but few appreciate sentience at that atomic of a mechanical level lol. I just think it's a massive glazed over step in going from mind to city/culture/science)

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

A byproduct of self help hokum. Most people who have difficulties in life relating to their "success" are told to visualize their goals, and magically they'll achieve themselves somehow. They never actually say how to summon the executive function necessary in order to perform the tasks to achieve the goals. That would result in too many middle class people.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago

I've also heard it described by the Puzzle in a Thunderstorm gang as someone being so blind and unwilling to acknowledge their privilege that they claim everything good that happens to them is literal magic. Their problems can be solved by social safety nets and coincidence, but get attributed to their "positive thinking" altering the fabric of reality to benefit them.

load more comments (5 replies)
[–] Cerise_W 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sean Carroll had a great take: everything is waves in fields and we know of five fields: Strong Weak Electric Gravity Higgs

Particle behavior arises from interacting waves. So anything that acts like a particle is actually waves interfering with each other.

[–] [email protected] 9 points 1 year ago

God doesn't play dice, he surfs, got it.

[–] Wilzax 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Consciousness has nothing to do with the "observations" in quantum mechanics. The wave function collapses when we entangle ourselves with the outcome. Whether or not we actually record those "observations" is irrelevant.

[–] niktemadur 9 points 1 year ago

The term they should have used from the get-go is "measurement" instead of "observation". Humans will always tack on mystical mumbo jumbo if given a chance, muddying up the waters for us laymen trying to learn, and "measurement" sounds much more neutral to me.

[–] tdawg 10 points 1 year ago

Having to explain to your parent that yes physics requires math and that yes being a physicist is a job that requires years of dedication to fully appreciate is wild. Also, physicists are just bad at naming things, so no your brain doesn't change reality around it because it has eye holes attached to it

[–] hakunawazo 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Everybody knows you need to fall off your toilet and hit your head on the sink for instant flux capacitor.

[–] [email protected] 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Continental philosophy in a nutshell. Find some cool sciencey concept, and abstract it beyond anything that is reasonable.

[–] [email protected] 2 points 1 year ago (4 children)

What would oceanic philosophy be then? Dilute everything?

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] AeonFelis 4 points 1 year ago

We have the many-worlds interpretation that makes perfect sense (as long as you accept that consciousness is just a function of the particles in your brain and not some spiritual essence detached from the laws of physics), but Niels Bohr had to convince everyone that Quantum Mechanics is not supposed to make any sense just so that he could win his argument against Albert Einstein, so now everyone think it's just another interpretation on equal footing with the Copenhagen nonsense.

[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I believe once we fully understand consciousness, we'll understand the nature of reality. Of course, I could be wrong.

[–] DaMonsterKnees 1 points 1 year ago

It always worked out in Alpha Centauri. Boom two free techs. gg

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] [email protected] 4 points 1 year ago

I wouldn't call it weird, just unconventional.

[–] [email protected] 3 points 1 year ago

Have you seen the movies? The only sane person who messed with quantum stuff is the camera man, and he never speaks of anything.

[–] [email protected] 1 points 5 months ago

If only conciousness did affect reality, it would salvage the soul, which sadly doesn't appear to exist - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8121175/

[–] [email protected] 1 points 1 year ago

all i know about quantum physics is that its what killes black dwarfs

load more comments
view more: next ›