There's no protocol for different calendar apps to send one another invites directly. They use email for that, which means they need an email integration. Email has the advantage of having been standardized back in the '80s and '90s, with only a few minor modifications since then (mostly for spam prevention). So different companies' email systems have to work together. Calendars just layer on top of that compatibility.
this post was submitted on 26 Nov 2023
106 points (96.5% liked)
No Stupid Questions
35875 readers
3420 users here now
No such thing. Ask away!
!nostupidquestions is a community dedicated to being helpful and answering each others' questions on various topics.
The rules for posting and commenting, besides the rules defined here for lemmy.world, are as follows:
Rules (interactive)
Rule 1- All posts must be legitimate questions. All post titles must include a question.
All posts must be legitimate questions, and all post titles must include a question. Questions that are joke or trolling questions, memes, song lyrics as title, etc. are not allowed here. See Rule 6 for all exceptions.
Rule 2- Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material.
Your question subject cannot be illegal or NSFW material. You will be warned first, banned second.
Rule 3- Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here.
Do not seek mental, medical and professional help here. Breaking this rule will not get you or your post removed, but it will put you at risk, and possibly in danger.
Rule 4- No self promotion or upvote-farming of any kind.
That's it.
Rule 5- No baiting or sealioning or promoting an agenda.
Questions which, instead of being of an innocuous nature, are specifically intended (based on reports and in the opinion of our crack moderation team) to bait users into ideological wars on charged political topics will be removed and the authors warned - or banned - depending on severity.
Rule 6- Regarding META posts and joke questions.
Provided it is about the community itself, you may post non-question posts using the [META] tag on your post title.
On fridays, you are allowed to post meme and troll questions, on the condition that it's in text format only, and conforms with our other rules. These posts MUST include the [NSQ Friday] tag in their title.
If you post a serious question on friday and are looking only for legitimate answers, then please include the [Serious] tag on your post. Irrelevant replies will then be removed by moderators.
Rule 7- You can't intentionally annoy, mock, or harass other members.
If you intentionally annoy, mock, harass, or discriminate against any individual member, you will be removed.
Likewise, if you are a member, sympathiser or a resemblant of a movement that is known to largely hate, mock, discriminate against, and/or want to take lives of a group of people, and you were provably vocal about your hate, then you will be banned on sight.
Rule 8- All comments should try to stay relevant to their parent content.
Rule 9- Reposts from other platforms are not allowed.
Let everyone have their own content.
Rule 10- Majority of bots aren't allowed to participate here.
Credits
Our breathtaking icon was bestowed upon us by @Cevilia!
The greatest banner of all time: by @TheOneWithTheHair!
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Calendar apps can communicate with each other over the mail protocol? Or are you just saying they integrated them to make it easier for people to email each other invites
Your calendar app integrates with your email app. So when you create a calendar event and want to invite Bob to it, you can use your email contacts to find Bob. When you send the invite, it goes by email from your email system to Bob's. When Bob opens it, his email app asks him if he wants to add the event to his calendar.
Your calendar app and Bob's calendar app never talk to each other directly, but you're still able to invite Bob to an event. Your calendar only talks to your email. Your email talks to your email service, which talks to Bob's email service. Bob's email client talks to Bob's email service and then to Bob's calendar.
This is actually good. It means that anyone can switch to a different email or calendar app and all they have to do is update their contacts. People can use Hotmail or Gmail or Microsoft or self-hosted email, and integrate whatever calendar they like alongside it.
So OP is basically Alice?
That could work with any messaging service or app though. You just need some apis.
and all they have to do is update their contacts. People can use Hotmail or Gmail or Microsoft or self-hosted email, and integrate whatever calendar they like alongside it.
But well, that's kinda the problem that spurred this question though, you can't, because there are no independent calendar or email apps. If I use Gmail but want to dump Google calendar, too bad for me I guess.
What’s the problem with just not using the portion of the service you do not wish to use? For almost everyone, the integration with email for the calendar is what actually makes it function, where you will be interacting with other people. Most people who want to create a new, unique calendar will just create an additional one in an existing account if they want a separate calendar for a certain purpose.
That’s what I do with my wife for events that we both need to know about. So we have a calendar that is just our stuff and we both subscribe to it (or more like she has the calendar shared with her from my account) but she has permissions to add/remove things. Is there some reason you need a completely separate calendar on a unique service? I feel like we are missing something about your use case to actually be able to understand what you are trying to do.
I use gmail to update my iCloud calendar. In this case the separation is between the email server and email client
It is decentralized. Email is still a fantastic application for this. Reddit, Facebook, Apple, Twitter, messenger/WhatsApp and the likes are all trying to screw this up and force you into their walled of garden.
This is a bit off. The apps do not integrate in any way. Your calendar app sends an email via your email provider.
For example, you could use Simple Calendar Pro as your calendar app, and K9 Mail as your email app. If you send an invite, SCP does not need to use K9 to send the email invite. It sends the invite itself using the SMTP credentials.
Technically speaking, calendar apps don't really communicate with each other directly at all. It's the email systems that talk to the calendars.
As fubo said, there's no protocol for a calendar function. Protocols are what apps used to talk to each other.
Except… CalDAV exists. It’s built on top of WebDAV and not email. IMAP has the ability to share objects, and some calendar apps use that to share calendars the same way you’d share emails, but there’s an international standard for doing calendars without email.
I personally use a self-hosted NextCloud for calendars and contacts. It integrates into pretty much every app out there, or I can use the web interface or NextCloud apps. Email is only needed for the admin account to send email notifications of someone gets locked out etc.
Those are all protocols for accessing an entire calendar or sharing your whole calendar, not for general-purpose inviting one user to one event.
you lost me at invites
It's fine if you don't have a need for invites. But question was why are they integrated, and that's why. For work I'm sure I send or receive a calendar invite every day. If my calendar wasn't integrated with my mail client it would add a lot of friction to that process.
Stop thinking about what you want and think about what companies do for the answer.
You start a company to provide email service. You hire some developers and they craft the unique features for your email service. Once your email service is stable and secure, you don't just fire 9/10 of the staff and call it done? Email is enough for home users. But they don't like paying for email when every ISP out there gives it away for free. The bread and butter is business. They LOVE paying a small fee for every user. The size of that fee moves with services offered. All of a sudden, you're pushing your developers to offer Authentication, chat, calendar, file share, web serving, app development/hosting, directory services, video conferencing, VOIP phone service.
From a business standpoint, all these things things that seem like disparate services, tie together very well as you have entire teams that use the services in a coordinated fashion.
From your standpoint, you just want a calendar. But no one is going to pay someone to host a calendar for them. There's not enough signal intelligence in just a calendar to make selling your data worth it, so you have to choose from a package.
Tech giants basically. But that doesn't mean every company goes this way. There are plenty of companies for like todo lists. Or notes. Or messaging. Or any of the 10 million sub-categories of productivity apps.
They may not be popular but they are out there. For categories like notes there's dozens of them.
Not calendars though, that seems to be the exception.
All of the calendar providers also provide note taking apps :)
Note taking apps aren't a solved problem. There's still a lot of innovation there. Most of the stand alone note taking apps that aren't providing an entire office suite have an angle that people are willing to pay for.
Most Todo apps have an embedded calendar. and people will generally pay for organization software.
It really just comes down to the fact that there aren't enough people willing to pay for a stand alone hosted calendar to make it a viable business, especially when they already have a calendar app build in to their email/office suite.
I recently tried to get away from outlook as my primary email / calendar. Tried a couple of different providers only to discover just how reliant I am on having seamless calendar invites.
Manually attaching .ICS files to email was not going to cut it. No matter how good caldav is for my phone to desktop, I need to easily make events / respond to them.
I'd suggest Google because they integrate calendar, email, chat, teleconference, and mapping pretty well. But, that's kinda like jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Shared calendars do honestly work alot better in Google than anything using Outlook though.
Indeed it would be. I've recently degoogled by installing Graphene on my phone too.
I'd never really used my gmail account for email or calendar previously anyway as I never liked it from the start. It's just what my android's have been tied to.
Probably because that's how most people know it from work. There it comes from Microsoft Exchange, Lotus Notes (I think) and Gmail.
Personally I have my calendars on my own Nextcloud instance. That's mainly for files. But I use that anyways, so getting calendars, contacts and passwords was a nice bonus.
But I use that anyways, so getting calendars, contacts and passwords was a nice bonus.
This is how most people seem to think about this. And if it works out for you, great, I'm happy for you. But I don't think I need to explain to anyone here the evils of bundling.
I know what you mean. But luckily with such an open platform it's trivial to migrate my data to other applications should the need arise.
Mainly because email is used so heavily for scheduling. For example, I emailed my tattoo artist back and forth a ton recently then they sent me a calendar invite that automatically got added for my shared calendar
The biggest reason they’ve been tightly coupled historically has been event notifications and invitations. It’s a lot easier for one email client to both create the event in the calendar, and send the event metadata (.ics file) to the invitees.
Nowadays, it’s honestly much simpler to have them entirely separate, at least for personal use. My partner and I use a shared NextCloud calendar which works well on both iOS and Android using CalDAV. Much simpler than Google/microsoft/icloud’s sharing options.
You say you just want a calendar, but how would you get the calendar entries? All self created? None coming in over email?
If yes, it sounds like you want a planner. You might have better luck looking up that as a keyword.
I'm fine with getting invites or something, I don't quite understand why it has to be email. Why not just a link? When I share a google doc, it's not only over a email service of the same vendor, it's just a link I can send anywhere. That's the inextricable link.
edit: they're just .ics files anyway aren't they?
I looked up planners out of curiosity, but it just gives me paper planners or todo-list apps. Is there any specific service you were referring to?
When I share a google doc, it's not only over a email service of the same vendor, it's just a link I can send anywhere.
Well you're sending a link to a Google hosted service. The other side necessarily needs to interact with a Google service in order to make sense of that link, and, if they so choose, make edits directly in that Google service or export with Google's export functionality. If you send that link, a Microsoft Office user won't simply be able to open it in Microsoft Word (and even if Microsoft implements that functionality it would require Microsoft to actively maintain an API key with the Google service).
If you're sharing a calendar entry between the current big 3 (Microsoft Outlook, Google Calendar, Apple Calendar), it sends an email to the other. From the users perspective, a Google user never has to interact with Apple's servers, or a Microsoft server (whether a local Exchange server or a cloud-based 365 one), because everything necessary comes to that users own server through a federated messaging service (email). You just send an invite to user@domain and it just works, but the protocols all simply assume that user@domain is an email address and that sending email to that address will cause the other user's email service to process and process that calendar invite for that user.
You can also host your own, check out radicale! Is quite simple.
thought about it, not sure it's worth it. Also, would have to use python
You can just use the Calendar apps on your phone and/or laptop. Etar is a good option for Android.
If you want synchronisation, you will either have to set up a calDAV based server yourself, or use someone else's. I use Nextcloud, and it synchronises many things, like calendar, contacts, tasks etc., using DAV protocol.
There are some public Nextcloud servers with server-side encryption that you can go for. Setting up your Nextcloud just for calender would be overkill. You may want to take a look at some awesome-selfhosted list, if you are into self-hosting.
I'm not sure what you're looking for; I use mailfence and it is OK with the calendar but not great. I am able to avoid google that way, tho. I did have issues with folks who do use google, but I am willing to work around that. I pay something like US$5 per year.
Really can't tell you where it came from, but which part of the google calendar integration with gmail doesn't work for you? I'm quite happy with that.
But have a look at tweek.so, they are a calendar & task planner without email service, and free for personal use.
Honestly just trying to get away from google. I did actually use tweek for a bit, but in trying to combine email and tasks lists it ended up being a mediocre version of both, and I couldn't justify paying for that. Also it only worked with google calendar to work with others (idk if that's changed)
Fastmail.com (referral link here for 10% off) has email, calendar, storage, notes and contacts, and has been working well for me. Better search and functionality than Proton.
right, and I like fastmail, but that goes back to the problem in the OP, I have no interest in storage, email, notes, and contacts, I just want a calendar. In this case I'd be paying like like $30 a year for things I don't want. If fastmail had fastcal for $1 a month, I'd buy it.
If this doesn't exist I think you have to make it
Morgen, perhaps. I addressed your last post which said you're trying to get away from Google, not avoiding using email at all.
Morgen is just a client though, it doesn't provide syncing or sharing
It puts appointments on my calendar from other places, and people can add to it also. I can share my availablity.
You do realize you can use a service that provides a bunch of different things, but only use the calendar feature and ignore everything else, right?
You can also use a local calendar app. Just don't connect it to anything.
I use the default Gnome Calendar (because Linux), but Windows, MacOS, iOS, and Android have calendar apps as well. Obviously.
That's what I'm doing now but I'd rather not pay for things I'm not using.
Do you expect to find a company that sells a calendar-only subscription? "Calendar - 49c/month"?
I've been looking at lot at all kinds of services and most start their pricing at around 5 USD/month. Regardless of how much actual features they actually provide.
I'd say your best bet is NextCloud. You can rent some, self host or use a free instance (there's a couple around).
Personally, I'm self-hosting stuff on a VPS. For whopping 5USD/month I'm getting things I'd be paying 50, if not mere, if they were offered as separate products by your average service-providing companies.
Hi, fruux.com is what you're looking for.
Most email services allow you to forward mail to other addresses, and download all your mail to move it to another provider.